§1.630ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Cleinias: Why, of course.
ΑΘ. ἡμεῖς δέ γε ἀγαθῶν ὄντων τούτων ἔτι φαμὲν ἀμείνους εἶναι καὶ πολὺ τοὺς ἐν τῷ μεγίστῳ πολέμῳ γιγνομένους ἀρίστους διαφανῶς·
Athenian: And yet we, while these are good, still say that those who prove conspicuously the best in the greatest war are far better.
ποιητὴν δὲ καὶ ἡμεῖς μάρτυρʼ ἔχομεν, Θέογνιν, πολίτην τῶν ἐν Σικελίᾳ Μεγαρέων, ὅς φησιν—
"
πιστὸς ἀνὴρ χρυσοῦ τε καὶ ἀργύρου ἀντερύσασθαι
ἄξιος ἐν χαλεπῇ, Κύρνε, διχοστασίῃ.
And we too have a poet as witness, Theognis, a citizen of the Megarians in Sicily, who says: "A trustworthy man, Cyrnus, is worth his weight against gold and silver in a difficult dispute.
"
τοῦτον δή φαμεν ἐν πολέμῳ χαλεπωτέρῳ ἀμείνονα ἐκείνου πάμπολυ γίγνεσθαι, σχεδὸν ὅσον ἀμείνων δικαιοσύνη καὶ σωφροσύνη καὶ φρόνησις εἰς ταὐτὸν ἐλθοῦσαι μετʼ ἀνδρείας, αὐτῆς μόνης ἀνδρείας.
"We say indeed that this man in a more difficult war becomes by far better than that other, pretty much by as much as justice and temperance and wisdom, when joined together with courage, are better than courage alone.
πιστὸς μὲν γὰρ καὶ ὑγιὴς ἐν στάσεσιν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἄνευ συμπάσης ἀρετῆς· διαβάντες δʼ εὖ καὶ μαχόμενοι ἐθέλοντες ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐν ᾧ πολέμῳ φράζει Τύρταιος τῶν μισθοφόρων εἰσὶν πάμπολλοι, ὧν οἱ πλεῖστοι γίγνονται θρασεῖς καὶ ἄδικοι καὶ ὑβρισταὶ καὶ ἀφρονέστατοι σχεδὸν ἁπάντων, ἐκτὸς δή τινων εὖ μάλα ὀλίγων.
For a trustworthy and sound man in civil wars would never arise without complete virtue; whereas of those who stand firm and are willing to die fighting in the war of which Tyrtaeus speaks, there are very many mercenaries, of whom the majority become bold, unjust, hubristic, and pretty much the most foolish of all, except indeed for some very few.
ποῖ δὴ τελευτᾷ νῦν ἡμῖν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, καὶ τί φανερόν ποτε ποιῆσαι βουληθεὶς λέγει ταῦτα;
Where then does this argument of ours end now, and what, in wishing to make clear, does it say these things?
δῆλον ὅτι τόδε, ὡς παντὸς μᾶλλον καὶ ὁ τῇδε παρὰ Διὸς νομοθέτης, πᾶς τε οὗ καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελος, οὐκ ἄλλο ἢ πρὸς τὴν μεγίστην ἀρετὴν μάλιστα βλέπων ἀεὶ θήσει τοὺς νόμους· ἔστι δέ, ὥς φησιν Θέογνις, αὕτη πιστότης ἐν τοῖς δεινοῖς, ἥν τις δικαιοσύνην ἂν τελέαν ὀνομάσειεν.
Clearly it is this: that above all else, both the lawgiver here from Zeus, and everyone who is of even little use, will always establish laws looking to nothing other than the greatest virtue; and this, as Theognis says, is trustworthiness in dangers, which one might call complete justice.
ἣν δʼ αὖ Τύρταιος ἐπῄνεσεν μάλιστα, καλὴ μὲν καὶ κατὰ καιρὸν κεκοσμημένη τῷ ποιητῇ, τετάρτη μέντοι ὅμως ἀριθμῷ τε καὶ δυνάμει τοῦ τιμία εἶναι λέγοιτʼ ἂν ὀρθότατα.
On the other hand, the one which Tyrtaeus praised most, though beautiful and opportunely adorned by the poet, would nevertheless be most correctly said to be fourth in number and in power of being honored.
ΚΛ. ὦ ξένε, τὸν νομοθέτην ἡμῶν ἀποβάλλομεν εἰς τοὺς πόρρω νομοθέτας.
Cleinias: O stranger, we are casting our lawgiver away among far distant lawgivers.
ΑΘ. οὐχ ἡμεῖς γε, ὦ ἄριστε, ἀλλʼ ἡμᾶς αὐτούς, ὅταν οἰώμεθα πάντα τά τʼ ἐν Λακεδαίμονι καὶ τὰ τῇδε πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον μάλιστα βλέποντας Λυκοῦργόν τε καὶ Μίνω τίθεσθαι τὰ νόμιμα.
Athenian: Not we, my excellent friend, but ourselves, whenever we think that Lycurgus and Minos established all the customs in Lacedaemon and here looking most of all to war.
ΚΛ. τὸ δὲ πῶς χρῆν ἡμᾶς λέγειν;
Cleinias: But how ought we to have spoken?
ΑΘ. ὥσπερ τό τε ἀληθὲς οἶμαι καὶ τὸ δίκαιον ὑπέρ γε θείας διαλεγομένους λέγειν, οὐχ ὡς πρὸς ἀρετῆς τι μόριον, καὶ ταῦτα τὸ φαυλότατον, ἐτίθει βλέπων, ἀλλὰ πρὸς πᾶσαν ἀρετήν, καὶ κατʼ εἴδη ζητεῖν αὐτῶν τοὺς νόμους οὐδʼ ἅπερ οἱ τῶν νῦν εἴδη προτιθέμενοι ζητοῦσιν.
Athenian: Just as indeed, I think, both truth and justice require those who speak about a divine lawgiver to say: that he did not establish laws looking toward some single part of virtue, and that too the most trivial, but toward whole virtue, and that we must investigate his laws according to their classes, and not the very things which those who propose classes nowadays investigate.
§1.631ΑΘ. οὗ γὰρ ἂν ἕκαστος ἐν χρείᾳ γίγνηται, τοῦτο ζητεῖ νῦν παραθέμενος, ὁ μὲν τὰ περὶ τῶν κλήρων καὶ ἐπικλήρων, ὁ δὲ τῆς αἰκίας πέρι, ἄλλοι δὲ ἄλλʼ ἄττα μυρία τοιαῦτα·
Athenian: For whatever each person happens to be in need of, this he now investigates, setting it before him—one about inheritances and heiresses, another about assault, and others about ten thousand other such things.
ἡμεῖς δέ φαμεν εἶναι τὸ περὶ νόμους ζήτημα τῶν εὖ ζητούντων ὥσπερ νῦν ἡμεῖς ἠρξάμεθα.
But we say that the investigation about laws by those who investigate well is just as we have now begun.
καὶ σοῦ τὴν μὲν ἐπιχείρησιν τῆς ἐξηγήσεως περὶ τοὺς νόμους παντάπασιν ἄγαμαι· τὸ γὰρ ἀπʼ ἀρετῆς ἄρχεσθαι, λέγοντα ὡς ἐτίθει ταύτης ἕνεκα τοὺς νόμους, ὀρθόν·
And I entirely admire your attempt at the explanation concerning the laws; for to begin from virtue, saying that he established the laws for the sake of this, is correct.
ὅτι δὲ πάντα εἰς μόριον ἀρετῆς, καὶ ταῦτα τὸ σμικρότατον, ἐπαναφέροντα ἔφησθʼ αὐτὸν νομοθετεῖν, οὔτε ὀρθῶς ἔτι μοι κατεφάνης λέγων τόν τε ὕστερον νῦν λόγον τοῦτον πάντα εἴρηκα διὰ ταῦτα.
But because you said that he legislated by referring everything back to a part of virtue, and that too the smallest, you no longer seemed to me to be speaking correctly, and it is for these reasons that I have spoken all this subsequent argument now.
πῇ δὴ οὖν σε ἔτʼ ἂν ἐβουλόμην διελόμενον λέγειν αὐτός τε ἀκούειν;
In what way then would I have wished you further to distinguish and speak, and to hear myself?
βούλει σοι φράζω;
Do you wish me to tell you?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Cleinias: Quite so, indeed.
ΑΘ.
ὦ ξένε,
ἐχρῆν εἰπεῖν,
οἱ Κρητῶν νόμοι οὐκ εἰσὶν μάτην διαφερόντως ἐν πᾶσιν εὐδόκιμοι τοῖς Ἕλλησιν·
Athenian: "O stranger," you ought to have said, "the laws of the Cretans are not in vain extraordinarily well-reputed among all the Greeks; for they are correct, rendering those who use them happy.
ἔχουσιν γὰρ ὀρθῶς, τοὺς αὐτοῖς χρωμένους εὐδαίμονας ἀποτελοῦντες. πάντα γὰρ τἀγαθὰ πορίζουσιν.
For they provide all goods.
διπλᾶ δὲ ἀγαθά ἐστιν, τὰ μὲν ἀνθρώπινα, τὰ δὲ θεῖα· ἤρτηται δʼ ἐκ τῶν θείων θάτερα, καὶ ἐὰν μὲν δέχηταί τις τὰ μείζονα πόλις, κτᾶται καὶ τὰ ἐλάττονα, εἰ δὲ μή, στέρεται ἀμφοῖν.
And goods are of two kinds, the human and the divine; and the former depend upon the divine, and if a city receives the greater, it acquires the lesser as well, but if not, it is deprived of both.
ἔστι δὲ τὰ μὲν ἐλάττονα ὧν ἡγεῖται μὲν ὑγίεια, κάλλος δὲ δεύτερον, τὸ δὲ τρίτον ἰσχὺς εἴς τε δρόμον καὶ εἰς τὰς ἄλλας πάσας κινήσεις τῷ σώματι, τέταρτον δὲ δὴ πλοῦτος οὐ τυφλὸς ἀλλʼ ὀξὺ βλέπων, ἄνπερ ἅμʼ ἕπηται φρονήσει·
And the lesser are those of which health indeed leads, beauty is second, and third is strength in running and in all other movements of the body, and fourth indeed is wealth, not blind but sharp-sighted, if only it should follow along with wisdom.
ὃ δὴ πρῶτον αὖ τῶν θείων ἡγεμονοῦν ἐστιν ἀγαθῶν, ἡ φρόνησις, δεύτερον δὲ μετὰ νοῦ σώφρων ψυχῆς ἕξις, ἐκ δὲ τούτων μετʼ ἀνδρείας κραθέντων τρίτον ἂν εἴη δικαιοσύνη, τέταρτον δὲ ἀνδρεία.
And this indeed is first in turn of the divine goods, being their leader, second is a temperate disposition of the soul with intellect, and from these blended with courage, third would be justice, and fourth is courage.
ταῦτα δὲ πάντα ἐκείνων ἔμπροσθεν τέτακται φύσει, καὶ δὴ καὶ τῷ νομοθέτῃ τακτέον οὕτως.
And all these are by nature ordered before those others, and indeed the lawgiver also must order them thus.
μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα τὰς ἄλλας προστάξεις τοῖς πολίταις εἰς ταῦτα βλεπούσας αὐτοῖς εἶναι διακελευστέον, τούτων δὲ τὰ μὲν ἀνθρώπινα εἰς τὰ θεῖα, τὰ δὲ θεῖα εἰς τὸν ἡγεμόνα νοῦν σύμπαντα βλέπειν·
And after these things, he must command that the other ordinances for the citizens are to look to these very things, and of these, the human are to look to the divine, and the divine all together are to look to the leading intellect.
περί τε γάμους ἀλλήλοις ἐπικοινουμένους, μετά τε ταῦτα ἐν ταῖς τῶν παίδων γεννήσεσιν καὶ τροφαῖς ὅσοι τε ἄρρενες καὶ ὅσαι θήλειαι, νέων τε ὄντων καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ πρεσβύτερον ἰόντων μέχρι γήρως, τιμῶντα ὀρθῶς ἐπιμελεῖσθαι δεῖ καὶ ἀτιμάζοντα,
And concerning marriages in which they associate with one another, and after these in the births and nurture of children, both those who are male and those who are female, both when they are young and as they go on to older age until senility, he must take care, by distributing honor and dishonor correctly..."