§1.626ΚΛ. εἰ δὴ πολέμου γε ὄντος φυλακῆς ἕνεκα δεῖ συσσιτεῖν καί τινας ἄρχοντας καὶ ἀρχομένους διακεκοσμημένους εἶναι φύλακας αὐτῶν, τοῦτο καὶ ἐν εἰρήνῃ δραστέον.
Cleinias: If indeed, while war exists, it is necessary for the sake of defense to have common meals and for some to be rulers and others ruled, arranged as guardians of themselves, this must also be done in peace.
ἣν γὰρ καλοῦσιν οἱ πλεῖστοι τῶν ἀνθρώπων εἰρήνην, τοῦτʼ εἶναι μόνον ὄνομα, τῷ δʼ ἔργῳ πάσαις πρὸς πάσας τὰς πόλεις ἀεὶ πόλεμον ἀκήρυκτον κατὰ φύσιν εἶναι.
For what most of mankind call peace is only a name, but in reality there is by nature always an undeclared war of all cities against all other cities.
καὶ σχεδὸν ἀνευρήσεις, οὕτω σκοπῶν, τὸν Κρητῶν νομοθέτην ὡς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ἅπαντα δημοσίᾳ καὶ ἰδίᾳ τὰ νόμιμα ἡμῖν ἀποβλέπων συνετάξατο, καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα οὕτω φυλάττειν παρέδωκε τοὺς νόμους, ὡς τῶν ἄλλων οὐδενὸς οὐδὲν ὄφελος ὂν οὔτε κτημάτων οὔτʼ ἐπιτηδευμάτων, ἂν μὴ τῷ πολέμῳ ἄρα κρατῇ τις, πάντα δὲ τὰ τῶν νικωμένων ἀγαθὰ τῶν νικώντων γίγνεσθαι.
And you will pretty much find, if you look at it this way, that the Cretan lawgiver organized all our customs, both public and private, looking to war, and in accordance with these handed down the laws to be guarded in this way, on the ground that there is no benefit in any of the other things, whether possessions or practices, unless one prevails in war, but that all the goods of the defeated become those of the victors.
ΑΘ. καλῶς γε, ὦ ξένε, φαίνῃ μοι γεγυμνάσθαι πρὸς τὸ διειδέναι τὰ Κρητῶν νόμιμα.
Athenian: You seem to me, stranger, to have trained yourself well to understand thoroughly the Cretan customs.
τόδε δέ μοι φράζε ἔτι σαφέστερον· ὃν γὰρ ὅρον ἔθου τῆς εὖ πολιτευομένης πόλεως, δοκεῖς μοι λέγειν οὕτω κεκοσμημένην οἰκεῖν δεῖν, ὥστε πολέμῳ νικᾶν τὰς ἄλλας πόλεις.
But tell me this even more clearly: for the definition you laid down of the well-governed city, you seem to me to say that it must be managed and ordered in such a way as to defeat other cities in war.
ἦ γάρ;
Is that so?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν· οἶμαι δὲ καὶ τῷδε οὕτω συνδοκεῖν.
Cleinias: Indeed, quite so; and I believe our companion here agrees too.
ΜΕ. πῶς γὰρ ἂν ἄλλως ἀποκρίναιτο, ὦ θεῖε, Λακεδαιμονίων γε ὁστισοῦν;
Megillus: For how else, my good sir, could anyone at least of the Lacedaemonians answer?
ΑΘ. πότερʼ οὖν δὴ πόλεσι μὲν πρὸς πόλεις ὀρθὸν τοῦτʼ ἐστί, κώμῃ δὲ πρὸς κώμην ἕτερον;
Athenian: Is this then right for cities against cities, but different for village against village?
ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς.
Cleinias: Not at all.
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ ταὐτόν;
Athenian: But the same?
ΚΛ. ναί.
Cleinias: Yes.
ΑΘ. τί δέ;
Athenian: What then?
πρὸς οἰκίαν οἰκίᾳ τῶν ἐν τῇ κώμῃ, καὶ πρὸς ἄνδρα ἀνδρὶ ἑνὶ πρὸς ἕνα, ταὐτὸν ἔτι;
Of one house against another of those in the village, and of one man against another, one to one, is it still the same?
ΚΛ. ταὐτόν.
Cleinias: The same.
ΑΘ. αὐτῷ δὲ πρὸς αὑτὸν πότερον ὡς πολεμίῳ πρὸς πολέμιον διανοητέον;
Athenian: And what of oneself against oneself?
ἢ πῶς ἔτι λέγομεν;
Should one think of this as enemy against enemy, or how do we still say it?
ΚΛ. ὦ ξένε Ἀθηναῖε—οὐ γάρ σε Ἀττικὸν ἐθέλοιμʼ ἂν προσαγορεύειν· δοκεῖς γάρ μοι τῆς θεοῦ ἐπωνυμίας ἄξιος εἶναι μᾶλλον ἐπονομάζεσθαι· τὸν γὰρ λόγον ἐπʼ ἀρχὴν ὀρθῶς ἀναγαγὼν σαφέστερον ἐποίησας, ὥστε ῥᾷον ἀνευρήσεις ὅτι νυνδὴ ὑφʼ ἡμῶν ὀρθῶς ἐρρήθη τὸ πολεμίους εἶναι πάντας πᾶσιν δημοσίᾳ τε, καὶ ἰδίᾳ ἑκάστους αὐτοὺς σφίσιν αὐτοῖς.
Cleinias: O Athenian stranger—for I would not wish to call you Attic; for you seem to me to deserve rather to be named after the goddess herself; for by rightly bringing back the argument to its beginning, you have made it clearer, so that you will more easily find that what was just now said by us was correct: namely, that all are enemies to all publicly, and privately each individual is an enemy to themselves.
ΑΘ. πῶς εἴρηκας, ὦ θαυμάσιε;
Athenian: What do you mean, my wonderful friend?
ΚΛ. κἀνταῦθα, ὦ ξένε, τὸ νικᾶν αὐτὸν αὑτὸν πασῶν νικῶν πρώτη τε καὶ ἀρίστη, τὸ δὲ ἡττᾶσθαι αὐτὸν ὑφʼ ἑαυτοῦ πάντων αἴσχιστόν τε ἅμα καὶ κάκιστον.
Cleinias: Here too, stranger, for a man to conquer himself is the first and best of all victories, while to be defeated by himself is the most shameful and worst of all things.
ταῦτα γὰρ ὡς πολέμου ἐν ἑκάστοις ἡμῶν ὄντος πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς σημαίνει.
For these expressions indicate that there is a war against ourselves existing within each of us.
§1.627ΑΘ. πάλιν τοίνυν τὸν λόγον ἀναστρέψωμεν.
Athenian: Let us then reverse the argument again.
ἐπειδὴ γὰρ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ὁ μὲν κρείττων αὑτοῦ, ὁ δὲ ἥττων ἐστί, πότερα φῶμεν οἰκίαν τε καὶ κώμην καὶ πόλιν ἔχειν ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἐν αὑταῖς ἢ μὴ φῶμεν;
For since each one of us is either superior to himself or inferior to himself, should we say that a house, a village, and a city have this same characteristic in themselves, or should we not?
ΚΛ. τὸ κρείττω τε ἑαυτῆς εἶναι λέγεις τινά, τὴν δʼ ἥττω;
Cleinias: Do you mean that some one of them is superior to itself, and another inferior?
ΑΘ. ναί.
Athenian: Yes.
ΚΛ. καὶ τοῦτο ὀρθῶς ἤρου· πάνυ γὰρ ἔστι καὶ σφόδρα τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὐχ ἥκιστα ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν.
Cleinias: And you asked this correctly; for such a thing indeed very much exists, not least in cities.
ἐν ὁπόσαις μὲν γὰρ οἱ ἀμείνονες νικῶσιν τὸ πλῆθος καὶ τοὺς χείρους, ὀρθῶς ἂν αὕτη κρείττων τε ἑαυτῆς λέγοιθʼ ἡ πόλις, ἐπαινοῖτό τε ἂν δικαιότατα τῇ τοιαύτῃ νίκῃ· τοὐναντίον δέ, ὅπου τἀναντία.
For in whichever of them the better people conquer the multitude and the worse, that city would rightly be said to be superior to itself, and would be praised most justly for such a victory; but the opposite is true where the opposite happens.
ΑΘ. τὸ μὲν τοίνυν εἴ ποτέ ἐστίν που τὸ χεῖρον κρεῖττον τοῦ ἀμείνονος ἐάσωμεν—μακροτέρου γὰρ λόγου—τὸ δὲ ὑπὸ σοῦ λεγόμενον μανθάνω νῦν, ὥς ποτε πολῖται, συγγενεῖς καὶ τῆς αὐτῆς πόλεως γεγονότες, ἄδικοι καὶ πολλοὶ συνελθόντες, δικαίους ἐλάττους ὄντας βιάσονται δουλούμενοι, καὶ ὅταν μὲν κρατήσωσιν, ἥττων ἡ πόλις αὑτῆς ὀρθῶς αὕτη λέγοιτʼ ἂν ἅμα καὶ κακή, ὅπου δʼ ἂν ἡττῶνται, κρείττων τε καὶ ἀγαθή.
Athenian: Now, let us leave aside the question of whether the worse is ever anywhere superior to the better—for that belongs to a longer discussion—but what is said by you I now understand: that sometimes citizens, who are relatives and belonging to the same city, being unjust and many, having come together, will overpower by force the just who are fewer, enslaving them; and when they conquer, this city would rightly be said to be inferior to itself and at the same time bad, but where they are defeated, it is superior and good.
ΚΛ. καὶ μάλα ἄτοπον, ὦ ξένε, τὸ νῦν λεγόμενον· ὅμως δὲ ὁμολογεῖν οὕτως ἀναγκαιότατον.
Cleinias: And what has just been said is indeed very strange, stranger; nevertheless, it is highly necessary to agree that it is so.
ΑΘ. ἔχε δή. καὶ τόδε πάλιν ἐπισκεψώμεθα· πολλοὶ ἀδελφοί που γένοιντʼ ἂν ἑνὸς ἀνδρός τε καὶ μιᾶς ὑεῖς, καὶ δὴ καὶ θαυμαστὸν οὐδὲν τοὺς πλείους μὲν ἀδίκους αὐτῶν γίγνεσθαι, τοὺς δὲ ἐλάττους δικαίους.
Athenian: Wait now, and let us consider this in turn: there might be, I suppose, many brothers who are sons of one man and one woman, and indeed it is nothing surprising if the majority of them become unjust, and the minority just.
ΚΛ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
Cleinias: Indeed, it is not.
ΑΘ. καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴη γε πρέπον ἐμοί τε καὶ ὑμῖν τοῦτο θηρεύειν, ὅτι νικώντων μὲν τῶν πονηρῶν ἥ τε οἰκία καὶ ἡ συγγένεια αὕτη πᾶσα ἥττων αὑτῆς λέγοιτʼ ἄν, κρείττων δὲ ἡττωμένων·
Athenian: And it would not be fitting for you and me to hunt after this: namely, that when the wicked conquer, the house and this whole kindred would be said to be inferior to themselves, but superior when they are defeated.
οὐ γὰρ εὐσχημοσύνης τε καὶ ἀσχημοσύνης ῥημάτων ἕνεκα τὰ νῦν σκοπούμεθα πρὸς τὸν τῶν πολλῶν λόγον, ἀλλʼ ὀρθότητός τε καὶ ἁμαρτίας πέρι νόμων, ἥτις ποτʼ ἐστὶν φύσει.
For we are not now examining things for the sake of the elegance or inelegance of words, looking to the talk of the multitude, but concerning the correctness and error of laws, as to what they are by nature.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις.
Cleinias: Most truly spoken, stranger.
ΜΕ. καλῶς μὲν οὖν, ὥς γε ἐμοὶ συνδοκεῖν, τό γε τοσοῦτον, τὰ νῦν.
Megillus: Indeed, well said, as it seems to me, at least so far as this is concerned, for the present.
ΑΘ. ἴδωμεν δὴ καὶ τόδε· τούτοις τοῖς ἄρτι λεγομένοις ἀδελφοῖς γένοιτʼ ἄν πού τις δικαστής;
Athenian: Let us also look at this: could there be, I suppose, some judge for these brothers we just mentioned?
ΚΛ. πάνυ γε.
Cleinias: Certainly.
ΑΘ. πότερος οὖν ἀμείνων, ὅστις τοὺς μὲν ἀπολέσειεν αὐτῶν ὅσοι κακοί, τοὺς δὲ βελτίους ἄρχειν αὐτοὺς αὑτῶν προστάξειεν, ἢ ὅδε ὃς ἂν τοὺς μὲν χρηστοὺς ἄρχειν, τοὺς χείρους δʼ ἐάσας ζῆν ἄρχεσθαι ἑκόντας ποιήσειεν;
Athenian: Which of the two, then, is the better: one who would destroy those among them who are bad, and command the better to rule over themselves, or one who would make the good rule, and, while allowing the worse to live, make them willing to be ruled?