§9.571αὐτὸς δὴ λοιπός, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὁ τυραννικὸς ἀνὴρ σκέψασθαι, πῶς τε μεθίσταται ἐκ δημοκρατικοῦ, γενόμενός τε ποῖός τίς ἐστιν καὶ τίνα τρόπον ζῇ, ἄθλιον ἢ μακάριον. λοιπὸς γὰρ οὖν ἔτι οὗτος, ἔφη.
"Remaining, then, itself," I said, "is the tyrannical man to consider—how he changes from the democratic one, and what kind of person he becomes, and in what manner he lives, whether miserable or blessed." "Indeed, this one is still remaining," he said.
οἶσθʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὃ ποθῶ ἔτι; τὸ ποῖον; τὸ τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν, οἷαί τε καὶ ὅσαι εἰσίν, οὔ μοι δοκοῦμεν ἱκανῶς διῃρῆσθαι.
"Do you know, then," I said, "what I still desire?" "What kind of thing?" "That concerning desires, what kind and how many they are; it seems to me we have not sufficiently distinguished them.
τούτου δὴ ἐνδεῶς ἔχοντος, ἀσαφεστέρα ἔσται ἡ ζήτησις οὗ ζητοῦμεν. οὐκοῦν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἔτʼ ἐν καλῷ; πάνυ μὲν οὖν· καὶ σκόπει γε ὃ ἐν αὐταῖς βούλομαι ἰδεῖν.
Since this is lacking, the inquiry of what we seek will be less clear." "Well then," he said, "is it not still in good time?" "Very much so indeed; and consider what I wish to see in them.
ἔστιν δὲ τόδε.
It is this.
τῶν μὴ ἀναγκαίων ἡδονῶν τε καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν δοκοῦσί τινές μοι εἶναι παράνομοι, αἳ κινδυνεύουσι μὲν ἐγγίγνεσθαι παντί, κολαζόμεναι δὲ ὑπό τε τῶν νόμων καὶ τῶν βελτιόνων ἐπιθυμιῶν μετὰ λόγου ἐνίων μὲν ἀνθρώπων ἢ παντάπασιν ἀπαλλάττεσθαι ἢ ὀλίγαι λείπεσθαι καὶ ἀσθενεῖς, τῶν δὲ ἰσχυρότεραι καὶ πλείους. λέγεις δὲ καὶ τίνας, ἔφη, ταύτας;
Of the unnecessary pleasures and desires, some seem to me to be lawless, which are likely to arise in everyone, but being disciplined by the laws and by the better desires with reason, in some men they are either entirely got rid of or only a few and weak ones are left, while in others they remain stronger and more numerous." "And which ones do you mean by these?" he said.
τὰς περὶ τὸν ὕπνον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐγειρομένας, ὅταν τὸ μὲν ἄλλο τῆς ψυχῆς εὕδῃ, ὅσον λογιστικὸν καὶ ἥμερον καὶ ἄρχον ἐκείνου, τὸ δὲ θηριῶδές τε καὶ ἄγριον, ἢ σίτων ἢ μέθης πλησθέν, σκιρτᾷ τε καὶ ἀπωσάμενον τὸν ὕπνον ζητῇ ἰέναι καὶ ἀποπιμπλάναι τὰ αὑτοῦ ἤθη·
"Those that are aroused during sleep," I said, "when the rest of the soul slumbers, as much of it as is rational, gentle, and ruling over that other, while the beastly and wild part, gorged with food or drink, leaps up and, pushing sleep away, seeks to go and satisfy its own habits.
οἶσθʼ ὅτι πάντα ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ τολμᾷ ποιεῖν, ὡς ἀπὸ πάσης λελυμένον τε καὶ ἀπηλλαγμένον αἰσχύνης καὶ φρονήσεως.
You know that in such a state it dares to do everything, as if released and set free from all shame and prudence.
μητρί τε γὰρ ἐπιχειρεῖν μείγνυσθαι, ὡς οἴεται, οὐδὲν ὀκνεῖ, ἄλλῳ τε ὁτῳοῦν ἀνθρώπων καὶ θεῶν καὶ θηρίων, μιαιφονεῖν τε ὁτιοῦν, βρώματός τε ἀπέχεσθαι μηδενός·
For it does not shrink from attempting to couple with a mother, as it thinks, or with anyone else, whether man, god, or beast, nor from committing any murder whatsoever, nor does it abstain from any food.
καὶ ἑνὶ λόγῳ οὔτε ἀνοίας οὐδὲν ἐλλείπει οὔτʼ ἀναισχυντίας. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, λέγεις. ὅταν δέ γε οἶμαι ὑγιεινῶς τις ἔχῃ αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ καὶ σωφρόνως, καὶ εἰς τὸν ὕπνον ἴῃ τὸ λογιστικὸν μὲν ἐγείρας ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἑστιάσας λόγων καλῶν καὶ σκέψεων, εἰς σύννοιαν αὐτὸς αὑτῷ ἀφικόμενος, τὸ ἐπιθυμητικὸν δὲ μήτε ἐνδείᾳ δοὺς μήτε πλησμονῇ, ὅπως ἂν κοιμηθῇ καὶ μὴ παρέχῃ θόρυβον τῷ βελτίστῳ χαῖρον ἢ λυπούμενον, ἀλλʼ ἐᾷ αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτὸ μόνον καθαρὸν σκοπεῖν καὶ ὀρέγεσθαί του αἰσθάνεσθαι ὃ μὴ οἶδεν, ἤ τι τῶν γεγονότων ἢ ὄντων ἢ καὶ μελλόντων, §9.572ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ τὸ θυμοειδὲς πραΰνας καὶ μή τισιν εἰς ὀργὰς ἐλθὼν κεκινημένῳ τῷ θυμῷ καθεύδῃ, ἀλλʼ ἡσυχάσας μὲν τὼ δύο εἴδη, τὸ τρίτον δὲ κινήσας ἐν ᾧ τὸ φρονεῖν ἐγγίγνεται, οὕτως ἀναπαύηται, οἶσθʼ ὅτι τῆς τʼ ἀληθείας ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ μάλιστα ἅπτεται καὶ ἥκιστα παράνομοι τότε αἱ ὄψεις φαντάζονται τῶν ἐνυπνίων. παντελῶς μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, οἶμαι οὕτως. ταῦτα μὲν τοίνυν ἐπὶ πλέον ἐξήχθημεν εἰπεῖν· ὃ δὲ βουλόμεθα γνῶναι τόδʼ ἐστίν, ὡς ἄρα δεινόν τι καὶ ἄγριον καὶ ἄνομον ἐπιθυμιῶν εἶδος ἑκάστῳ ἔνεστι, καὶ πάνυ δοκοῦσιν ἡμῶν ἐνίοις μετρίοις εἶναι· τοῦτο δὲ ἄρα ἐν τοῖς ὕπνοις γίγνεται ἔνδηλον.
And in a single word, it lacks nothing of folly or shamelessness." "Most truly indeed," he said, "do you speak." "But whenever, I think, someone is healthy and temperate in himself, and goes to sleep having aroused his rational part and feasted it on beautiful discourses and inquiries, coming to meditation with himself, and giving to the desiring part neither lack nor surfeit, so that it may fall asleep and not cause disturbance to the best part by rejoicing or grieving, but allows that part by itself alone, pure, to consider and reach out to perceive something it does not know, either of things past, present, or even to come, and likewise, having also calmed the spirited part, and not sleeping with his spirit stirred by having entered into anger against anyone, but having quieted the two parts, and having set in motion the third part in which wisdom resides, he thus takes his rest, you know that in such a state he most of all touches the truth, and the visions of his dreams then appear least lawless." "Entirely so indeed," he said, "I think it is thus." "Now then, we have been led to speak of these things at greater length; but what we wish to recognize is this: that after all, a certain terrible, wild, and lawless kind of desires exists in everyone, even in some of us who seem to be entirely moderate; and this, it seems, becomes manifest in sleep.
εἰ οὖν τι δοκῶ λέγειν καὶ συγχωρεῖς, ἄθρει. ἀλλὰ συγχωρῶ. τὸν τοίνυν δημοτικὸν ἀναμνήσθητι οἷον ἔφαμεν εἶναι.
Consider then, if I seem to say something of value and if you agree." "Indeed I agree." "Recall, then," I said, "what kind of person we said the democratic man is.
ἦν δέ που γεγονὼς ἐκ νέου ὑπὸ φειδωλῷ πατρὶ τεθραμμένος, τὰς χρηματιστικὰς ἐπιθυμίας τιμῶντι μόνας, τὰς δὲ μὴ ἀναγκαίους ἀλλὰ παιδιᾶς τε καὶ καλλωπισμοῦ ἕνεκα γιγνομένας ἀτιμάζοντι. ἦ γάρ; ναί.
He was, I believe, having been reared from youth under a thrifty father, who valued only the money-making desires, and held in dishonor those that are unnecessary but exist for the sake of play and refinement.
συγγενόμενος δὲ κομψοτέροις ἀνδράσι καὶ μεστοῖς ὧν ἄρτι διήλθομεν ἐπιθυμιῶν, ὁρμήσας εἰς ὕβριν τε πᾶσαν καὶ τὸ ἐκείνων εἶδος μίσει τῆς τοῦ πατρὸς φειδωλίας, φύσιν δὲ τῶν διαφθειρόντων βελτίω ἔχων, ἀγόμενος ἀμφοτέρωσε κατέστη εἰς μέσον ἀμφοῖν τοῖν τρόποιν, καὶ μετρίως δή, ὡς ᾤετο, ἑκάστων ἀπολαύων οὔτε ἀνελεύθερον οὔτε παράνομον βίον ζῇ, δημοτικὸς ἐξ ὀλιγαρχικοῦ γεγονώς. ἦν γάρ, ἔφη, καὶ ἔστιν αὕτη ἡ δόξα περὶ τὸν τοιοῦτον. θὲς τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πάλιν τοῦ τοιούτου ἤδη πρεσβυτέρου γεγονότος νέον ὑὸν ἐν τοῖς τούτου αὖ ἤθεσιν τεθραμμένον. τίθημι. τίθει τοίνυν καὶ τὰ αὐτὰ ἐκεῖνα περὶ αὐτὸν γιγνόμενα ἅπερ καὶ περὶ τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ, ἀγόμενόν τε εἰς πᾶσαν παρανομίαν, ὀνομαζομένην δʼ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀγόντων ἐλευθερίαν ἅπασαν, βοηθοῦντά τε ταῖς ἐν μέσῳ ταύταις ἐπιθυμίαις πατέρα τε καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους οἰκείους, τοὺς δʼ αὖ παραβοηθοῦντας·
Was it not so?" "Yes." "But associating with more clever men and those full of the desires we just went through, rushing into all insolence and their kind of behavior out of hatred for his father's thrift; having, however, a better nature than his corrupters, and being drawn in both directions, he settled in the middle of both ways of life, and enjoying each in moderation, as he thought, he lives a life neither illiberal nor lawless, having become democratic from oligarchic." "Indeed, that was and is," he said, "the opinion about such a person." "Assume, then, once more," I said, "that this sort of man has now grown older, and has a young son reared in his habits in turn." "I assume it." "Assume, then, also, that those same things happen to him which happened to his father, and that he is drawn into all lawlessness, which is called complete freedom by those who draw him, while his father and the other relatives assist these middle desires, and those others, on their part, counter-assist [the lawless ones]—"