§8.568ἦ μακάριον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις τυράννου χρῆμα, εἰ τοιούτοις φίλοις τε καὶ πιστοῖς ἀνδράσι χρῆται, τοὺς προτέρους ἐκείνους ἀπολέσας. ἀλλὰ μήν, ἔφη, τοιούτοις γε χρῆται. καὶ θαυμάζουσι δή, εἶπον, οὗτοι οἱ ἑταῖροι αὐτὸν καὶ σύνεισιν οἱ νέοι πολῖται, οἱ δʼ ἐπιεικεῖς μισοῦσί τε καὶ φεύγουσι; τί δʼ οὐ μέλλουσιν; οὐκ ἐτός, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἥ τε τραγῳδία ὅλως σοφὸν δοκεῖ εἶναι καὶ ὁ Εὐριπίδης διαφέρων ἐν αὐτῇ. τί δή; ὅτι καὶ τοῦτο πυκνῆς διανοίας ἐχόμενον ἐφθέγξατο, ὡς ἄρα
σοφοὶ τύραννοί
εἰσι
τῶν σοφῶν συνουσίᾳ. καὶ ἔλεγε δῆλον ὅτι τούτους εἶναι τοὺς σοφοὺς οἷς σύνεστιν. καὶ ὡς ἰσόθεόν γʼ, ἔφη, τὴν τυραννίδα ἐγκωμιάζει, καὶ ἕτερα πολλά, καὶ οὗτος καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ποιηταί. τοιγάρτοι, ἔφην, ἅτε σοφοὶ ὄντες οἱ τῆς τραγῳδίας ποιηταὶ συγγιγνώσκουσιν ἡμῖν τε καὶ ἐκείνοις ὅσοι ἡμῶν ἐγγὺς πολιτεύονται, ὅτι αὐτοὺς εἰς τὴν πολιτείαν οὐ παραδεξόμεθα ἅτε τυραννίδος ὑμνητάς. οἶμαι ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη, συγγιγνώσκουσιν ὅσοιπέρ γε αὐτῶν κομψοί. εἰς δέ γε οἶμαι τὰς ἄλλας περιιόντες πόλεις, συλλέγοντες τοὺς ὄχλους, καλὰς φωνὰς καὶ μεγάλας καὶ πιθανὰς μισθωσάμενοι, εἰς τυραννίδας τε καὶ δημοκρατίας ἕλκουσι τὰς πολιτείας. μάλα γε. οὐκοῦν καὶ προσέτι τούτων μισθοὺς λαμβάνουσι καὶ τιμῶνται, μάλιστα μέν, ὥσπερ τὸ εἰκός, ὑπὸ τυράννων, δεύτερον δὲ ὑπὸ δημοκρατίας·
"Indeed a blessed creature," I said, "you speak of in the tyrant, if he uses such men as friends and faithful ones, having destroyed those former ones." "But indeed," he said, "he does use such." "And do these companions admire him," I said, "and do the new citizens associate with him, while the decent ones hate and avoid them?" "How could they not?" "Not without reason," I said, "does tragedy as a whole seem to be wise, and Euripides outstanding in it." "Why so?" "Because he uttered this too, which comes from a deep mind, that after all 'tyrants are wise by association with the wise.'" "And he clearly meant that these with whom the tyrant associates are the wise ones." "And he praises tyranny as equal to a god," he said, "and many other things besides, both he and the other poets." "Therefore," I said, "being wise as they are, the tragic poets will forgive us and those who have a constitution similar to ours, because we shall not admit them into our constitution, since they are hymners of tyranny." "I think indeed they will forgive," he said, "at least those among them who are clever." "But, I think, going around to the other cities, gathering the crowds, and hiring beautiful, loud, and persuasive voices, they drag the constitutions toward tyrannies and democracies." "Very much so." "And furthermore, they receive pay for these things and are honored, most of all, as is reasonable, by tyrants, and secondly by democracies.
ὅσῳ δʼ ἂν ἀνωτέρω ἴωσιν πρὸς τὸ ἄναντες τῶν πολιτειῶν, μᾶλλον ἀπαγορεύει αὐτῶν ἡ τιμή, ὥσπερ ὑπὸ ἄσθματος ἀδυνατοῦσα πορεύεσθαι. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ἀλλὰ δή, εἶπον, ἐνταῦθα μὲν ἐξέβημεν· λέγωμεν δὲ πάλιν ἐκεῖνο τὸ τοῦ τυράννου στρατόπεδον, τὸ καλόν τε καὶ πολὺ καὶ ποικίλον καὶ οὐδέποτε ταὐτόν, πόθεν θρέψεται. δῆλον, ἔφη, ὅτι, ἐάν τε ἱερὰ χρήματα ᾖ ἐν τῇ πόλει, ταῦτα ἀναλώσει, ὅποι ποτὲ ἂν ἀεὶ ἐξαρκῇ τὰ τῶν ἀποδομένων, ἐλάττους εἰσφορὰς ἀναγκάζων τὸν δῆμον εἰσφέρειν. τί δʼ ὅταν δὴ ταῦτα ἐπιλίπῃ; δῆλον, ἔφη, ὅτι ἐκ τῶν πατρῴων θρέψεται αὐτός τε καὶ οἱ συμπόται τε καὶ ἑταῖροι καὶ ἑταῖραι. μανθάνω, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ὅτι ὁ δῆμος ὁ γεννήσας τὸν τύραννον θρέψει αὐτόν τε καὶ ἑταίρους. πολλὴ αὐτῷ, ἔφη, ἀνάγκη.
But the higher they go toward the steep slope of the constitutions, the more their honor fails, being unable to proceed as if from panting." "Quite so indeed." "But indeed," I said, "here we have digressed; let us speak again of that army of the tyrant, so fine, numerous, diverse, and never the same—from where will it be maintained?" "It is clear," he said, "that if there are sacred treasures in the city, he will spend them, as far as the proceeds of what is sold from time to time suffice, forcing the people to pay fewer war-taxes." "But what when these fail?" "It is clear," he said, "that from his father's estate he will be maintained—himself, his drinking companions, and his male and female associates." "I understand," I said; "that the people who begot the tyrant will maintain both him and his companions." "A great necessity is upon them," he said.
§8.569πῶς λέγεις; εἶπον·
"How do you mean?" I said.
ἐὰν δὲ ἀγανακτῇ τε καὶ λέγῃ ὁ δῆμος ὅτι οὔτε δίκαιον τρέφεσθαι ὑπὸ πατρὸς ὑὸν ἡβῶντα, ἀλλὰ τοὐναντίον ὑπὸ ὑέος πατέρα, οὔτε τούτου αὐτὸν ἕνεκα ἐγέννησέν τε καὶ κατέστησεν, ἵνα, ἐπειδὴ μέγας γένοιτο, τότε αὐτὸς δουλεύων τοῖς αὑτοῦ δούλοις τρέφοι ἐκεῖνόν τε καὶ τοὺς δούλους μετὰ συγκλύδων ἄλλων, ἀλλʼ ἵνα ἀπὸ τῶν πλουσίων τε καὶ καλῶν κἀγαθῶν λεγομένων ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐλευθερωθείη ἐκείνου προστάντος, καὶ νῦν κελεύει ἀπιέναι ἐκ τῆς πόλεως αὐτόν τε καὶ τοὺς ἑταίρους, ὥσπερ πατὴρ ὑὸν ἐξ οἰκίας μετὰ ὀχληρῶν συμποτῶν ἐξελαύνων; γνώσεταί γε, νὴ Δία, ἦ δʼ ὅς, τότʼ ἤδη ὁ δῆμος οἷος οἷον θρέμμα γεννῶν ἠσπάζετό τε καὶ ηὖξεν, καὶ ὅτι ἀσθενέστερος ὢν ἰσχυροτέρους ἐξελαύνει. πῶς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις;
"And what if the people get angry and say that it is not just for a grown-up son to be maintained by his father, but on the contrary, for a father to be maintained by his son, and that they did not beget and establish him for this, so that when he grew great, they themselves, being enslaved to their own slaves, should maintain him and those slaves along with other riffraff, but so that, under his leadership, they might be freed from the rich and those called 'fine and good' in the city; and if they now order both him and his companions to depart from the city, just as a father driving his son out of the house along with troublesome drinking companions?" "By Zeus," he said, "then indeed the people will know what kind of creature they begot, welcomed, and nurtured, and that, being weaker, they are trying to drive out those who are stronger." "How do you mean?" I said.
τολμήσει τὸν πατέρα βιάζεσθαι, κἂν μὴ πείθηται, τύπτειν ὁ τύραννος; ναί, ἔφη, ἀφελόμενός γε τὰ ὅπλα. πατραλοίαν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις τύραννον καὶ χαλεπὸν γηροτρόφον, καὶ ὡς ἔοικε τοῦτο δὴ ὁμολογουμένη ἂν ἤδη τυραννὶς εἴη, καί, τὸ λεγόμενον, ὁ δῆμος φεύγων ἂν καπνὸν δουλείας ἐλευθέρων εἰς πῦρ δούλων δεσποτείας ἂν ἐμπεπτωκὼς εἴη, ἀντὶ τῆς πολλῆς ἐκείνης καὶ ἀκαίρου ἐλευθερίας τὴν χαλεπωτάτην τε καὶ πικροτάτην δούλων δουλείαν μεταμπισχόμενος. καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, ταῦτα οὕτω γίγνεται.
"Will the tyrant dare to use force against his father, and if he does not obey, to strike him?" "Yes," he said, "at least after having stripped him of his weapons." "A father-beater," I said, "is what you say the tyrant is, and a harsh caregiver of old age, and as it seems, this indeed would now be an acknowledged tyranny; and, as the saying goes, the people, in fleeing the smoke of slavery to free men, would have fallen into the fire of the despotism of slaves, changing, instead of that abundant and untimely freedom, into the harshest and bitterest slavery—the slavery of slaves." "And indeed," he said, "these things do happen so." "What then?" I said.
τί οὖν; εἶπον· οὐκ ἐμμελῶς ἡμῖν εἰρήσεται, ἐὰν φῶμεν ἱκανῶς διεληλυθέναι ὡς μεταβαίνει τυραννὶς ἐκ δημοκρατίας, γενομένη τε οἵα ἐστίν; πάνυ μὲν οὖν ἱκανῶς, ἔφη.
"Will it not be appropriately said by us if we say that we have sufficiently gone through how tyranny changes from democracy, and, having arisen, what kind of thing it is?" "Quite sufficiently indeed," he said.