§7.540ἀμέλει, εἶπον, πέντε θές.
"Indeed," I said, "make it five.
μετὰ γὰρ τοῦτο καταβιβαστέοι ἔσονταί σοι εἰς τὸ σπήλαιον πάλιν ἐκεῖνο, καὶ ἀναγκαστέοι ἄρχειν τά τε περὶ τὸν πόλεμον καὶ ὅσαι νέων ἀρχαί, ἵνα μηδʼ ἐμπειρίᾳ ὑστερῶσι τῶν ἄλλων·
For after this they will have to be brought down by you into that cave again, and forced to rule in matters concerning war and all such offices as belong to the young, so that they may not lag behind the others in experience.
καὶ ἔτι καὶ ἐν τούτοις βασανιστέοι εἰ ἐμμενοῦσιν ἑλκόμενοι πανταχόσε ἤ τι καὶ παρακινήσουσι. χρόνον δέ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, πόσον τοῦτον τιθεῖς; πεντεκαίδεκα ἔτη, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
And still, even in these matters, they must be tested to see whether they will stand firm when dragged in every direction, or whether they will flinch in any way." "And for how long a time," he said, "do you set this?" "Fifteen years," I said.
γενομένων δὲ πεντηκοντουτῶν τοὺς διασωθέντας καὶ ἀριστεύσαντας πάντα πάντῃ ἐν ἔργοις τε καὶ ἐπιστήμαις πρὸς τέλος ἤδη ἀκτέον, καὶ ἀναγκαστέον ἀνακλίναντας τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς αὐγὴν εἰς αὐτὸ ἀποβλέψαι τὸ πᾶσι φῶς παρέχον, καὶ ἰδόντας τὸ ἀγαθὸν αὐτό, παραδείγματι χρωμένους ἐκείνῳ, καὶ πόλιν καὶ ἰδιώτας καὶ ἑαυτοὺς κοσμεῖν τὸν ἐπίλοιπον βίον ἐν μέρει ἑκάστους, τὸ μὲν πολὺ πρὸς φιλοσοφίᾳ διατρίβοντας, ὅταν δὲ τὸ μέρος ἥκῃ, πρὸς πολιτικοῖς ἐπιταλαιπωροῦντας καὶ ἄρχοντας ἑκάστους τῆς πόλεως ἕνεκα, οὐχ ὡς καλόν τι ἀλλʼ ὡς ἀναγκαῖον πράττοντας, καὶ οὕτως ἄλλους ἀεὶ παιδεύσαντας τοιούτους, ἀντικαταλιπόντας τῆς πόλεως φύλακας, εἰς μακάρων νήσους ἀπιόντας οἰκεῖν·
"And when they have become fifty years old, those who have survived and excelled in every way in both actions and sciences must now be led to the end, and forced, having lifted up the gleam of their soul, to look toward that which provides light for all, and having seen the good itself, using it as a pattern, to order both the city and private men and themselves for the remainder of their lives, each in turn, spending most of their time in philosophy, but when their turn comes, laboring in political affairs and ruling, each for the sake of the city, performing this not as something fine but as necessary; and having thus always educated others of like character and left them behind in their place as guardians of the city, to depart and dwell in the Isles of the Blessed.
μνημεῖα δʼ αὐτοῖς καὶ θυσίας τὴν πόλιν δημοσίᾳ ποιεῖν, ἐὰν καὶ ἡ Πυθία συναναιρῇ, ὡς δαίμοσιν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὡς εὐδαίμοσί τε καὶ θείοις. παγκάλους, ἔφη, τοὺς ἄρχοντας, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὥσπερ ἀνδριαντοποιὸς ἀπείργασαι. καὶ τὰς ἀρχούσας γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων·
And the city shall set up monuments and sacrifices for them at public expense, if the Pythia also consents, as to divinities, but if not, as to happy and divine men." "You have crafted exceedingly beautiful rulers, Socrates," he said, "just like a sculptor." "And female rulers too, Glaucon," I said.
μηδὲν γάρ τι οἴου με περὶ ἀνδρῶν εἰρηκέναι μᾶλλον ἃ εἴρηκα ἢ περὶ γυναικῶν, ὅσαι ἂν αὐτῶν ἱκαναὶ τὰς φύσεις ἐγγίγνωνται. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, εἴπερ ἴσα γε πάντα τοῖς ἀνδράσι κοινωνήσουσιν, ὡς διήλθομεν. τί οὖν; ἔφην·
"For do not suppose that what I have said was said any more about men than about women, as many of them as turn out to have sufficient natures." "Correct," he said, "if indeed they are to share everything in common equally with the men, as we described." "What then?" I said.
συγχωρεῖτε περὶ τῆς πόλεώς τε καὶ πολιτείας μὴ παντάπασιν ἡμᾶς εὐχὰς εἰρηκέναι, ἀλλὰ χαλεπὰ μέν, δυνατὰ δέ πῃ, καὶ οὐκ ἄλλῃ ἢ εἴρηται, ὅταν οἱ ὡς ἀληθῶς φιλόσοφοι δυνάσται, ἢ πλείους ἢ εἷς, ἐν πόλει γενόμενοι τῶν μὲν νῦν τιμῶν καταφρονήσωσιν, ἡγησάμενοι ἀνελευθέρους εἶναι καὶ οὐδενὸς ἀξίας, τὸ δὲ ὀρθὸν περὶ πλείστου ποιησάμενοι καὶ τὰς ἀπὸ τούτου τιμάς, μέγιστον δὲ καὶ ἀναγκαιότατον τὸ δίκαιον, καὶ τούτῳ δὴ ὑπηρετοῦντές τε καὶ αὔξοντες αὐτὸ διασκευωρήσωνται τὴν ἑαυτῶν πόλιν; πῶς; ἔφη.
"Do you agree that the things we have said about the city and the constitution are not altogether wishes, but are difficult, yet in a way possible, and in no other way than has been said, namely, when true philosophers as rulers, either more than one or one, arising in a city, despise the honors of the present day, considering them illiberal and worth nothing, while holding what is right and the honors deriving from it of the highest importance, and the just as the greatest and most necessary thing, and serving it and increasing it, they thoroughly reorganize their own city?" "How?" he said.
§7.541ὅσοι μὲν ἄν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πρεσβύτεροι τυγχάνωσι δεκετῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει, πάντας ἐκπέμψωσιν εἰς τοὺς ἀγρούς, τοὺς δὲ παῖδας αὐτῶν παραλαβόντες ἐκτὸς τῶν νῦν ἠθῶν, ἃ καὶ οἱ γονῆς ἔχουσι, θρέψωνται ἐν τοῖς σφετέροις τρόποισι καὶ νόμοις, οὖσιν οἵοις διεληλύθαμεν τότε·
"All those in the city," I said, "who happen to be older than ten years, they must send out into the fields, and taking over their children, outside of the present habits which their parents also possess, they must rear them in their own manners and laws, being such as we described then.
καὶ οὕτω τάχιστά τε καὶ ῥᾷστα πόλιν τε καὶ πολιτείαν, ἣν ἐλέγομεν, καταστᾶσαν αὐτήν τε εὐδαιμονήσειν καὶ τὸ ἔθνος ἐν ᾧ ἂν ἐγγένηται πλεῖστα ὀνήσειν; πολύ γʼ, ἔφη· καὶ ὡς ἂν γένοιτο, εἴπερ ποτὲ γίγνοιτο, δοκεῖς μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, εὖ εἰρηκέναι. οὐκοῦν ἅδην ἤδη, εἶπον ἐγώ, ἔχουσιν ἡμῖν οἱ λόγοι περί τε τῆς πόλεως ταύτης καὶ τοῦ ὁμοίου ταύτῃ ἀνδρός;
And in this way, the city and constitution we were speaking of, once established most quickly and easily, will both itself be happy and bring the greatest benefit to the nation in which it arises?" "Very much so," he said; "and how it would happen, if it ever were to happen, you seem to me, Socrates, to have described well." "Are not, then, our arguments now sufficient," I said, "concerning this city and the man who is like it?
δῆλος γάρ που καὶ οὗτος οἷον φήσομεν δεῖν αὐτὸν εἶναι. δῆλος, ἔφη· καὶ ὅπερ ἐρωτᾷς, δοκεῖ μοι τέλος ἔχειν.
For he too is presumably clear, what sort of person we shall say he must be." "Clear," he said; "and as to what you ask, it seems to me to have reached its end."