§7.538οἷον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἴ τις ὑποβολιμαῖος τραφείη ἐν πολλοῖς μὲν χρήμασι, πολλῷ δὲ καὶ μεγάλῳ γένει καὶ κόλαξι πολλοῖς, ἀνὴρ δὲ γενόμενος αἴσθοιτο ὅτι οὐ τούτων ἐστὶ τῶν φασκόντων γονέων, τοὺς δὲ τῷ ὄντι γεννήσαντας μὴ εὕροι, τοῦτον ἔχεις μαντεύσασθαι πῶς ἂν διατεθείη πρός τε τοὺς κόλακας καὶ πρὸς τοὺς ὑποβαλομένους ἐν ἐκείνῳ τε τῷ χρόνῳ ᾧ οὐκ ᾔδει τὰ περὶ τῆς ὑποβολῆς, καὶ ἐν ᾧ αὖ ᾔδει;
"For example," I said, "if someone were reared as a foster child among much wealth, a large and noble family, and many flatterers, but on becoming a man perceived that he was not the child of these self-proclaimed parents, yet could not find those who actually begot him—can you divine how he would be disposed toward the flatterers and toward those who took him in, both in the time when he did not know about his fosterage, and in the time when he did?
ἢ βούλει ἐμοῦ μαντευομένου ἀκοῦσαι; βούλομαι, ἔφη.
Or do you wish to hear me divining?" "I wish to," he said.
μαντεύομαι τοίνυν, εἶπον, μᾶλλον αὐτὸν τιμᾶν ἂν τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους οἰκείους δοκοῦντας ἢ τοὺς κολακεύοντας, καὶ ἧττον μὲν ἂν περιιδεῖν ἐνδεεῖς τινος, ἧττον δὲ παράνομόν τι δρᾶσαι ἢ εἰπεῖν εἰς αὐτούς, ἧττον δὲ ἀπειθεῖν τὰ μεγάλα ἐκείνοις ἢ τοῖς κόλαξιν, ἐν ᾧ χρόνῳ τὸ ἀληθὲς μὴ εἰδείη. εἰκός, ἔφη.
"I divine, then," I said, "that in the time when he did not know the truth, he would honor his father and mother and his other supposed relatives more than the flatterers, and would be less likely to overlook them if they were in need of anything, less likely to do or say anything lawless against them, and less likely to disobey them in important matters than the flatterers." "It is likely," he said.
αἰσθόμενον τοίνυν τὸ ὂν μαντεύομαι αὖ περὶ μὲν τούτους ἀνεῖναι ἂν τὸ τιμᾶν τε καὶ σπουδάζειν, περὶ δὲ τοὺς κόλακας ἐπιτεῖναι, καὶ πείθεσθαί τε αὐτοῖς διαφερόντως ἢ πρότερον καὶ ζῆν ἂν ἤδη κατʼ ἐκείνους, συνόντα αὐτοῖς ἀπαρακαλύπτως, πατρὸς δὲ ἐκείνου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ποιουμένων οἰκείων, εἰ μὴ πάνυ εἴη φύσει ἐπιεικής, μέλειν τὸ μηδέν. πάντʼ, ἔφη, λέγεις οἷά περ ἂν γένοιτο.
"But when he perceived the truth," I said, "I divine on the contrary that he would slacken in his honor and serious concern for them, and intensify it for the flatterers, and obey them preeminently more than before, and already live according to their way, associating with them openly, while caring nothing at all for that former father and his other made-up relatives, unless he were entirely decent by nature." "Everything you say is just as it would happen," he said.
ἀλλὰ πῇ πρὸς τοὺς ἁπτομένους τῶν λόγων αὕτη φέρει ἡ εἰκών; τῇδε.
"But in what way does this image apply to those who lay hold of arguments?" "In this way.
ἔστι που ἡμῖν δόγματα ἐκ παίδων περὶ δικαίων καὶ καλῶν, ἐν οἷς ἐκτεθράμμεθα ὥσπερ ὑπὸ γονεῦσι, πειθαρχοῦντές τε καὶ τιμῶντες αὐτά. ἔστι γάρ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἄλλα ἐναντία τούτων ἐπιτηδεύματα ἡδονὰς ἔχοντα, ἃ κολακεύει μὲν ἡμῶν τὴν ψυχὴν καὶ ἕλκει ἐφʼ αὑτά, πείθει δʼ οὒ τοὺς καὶ ὁπῃοῦν μετρίους· ἀλλʼ ἐκεῖνα τιμῶσι τὰ πάτρια καὶ ἐκείνοις πειθαρχοῦσιν. ἔστι ταῦτα.
We have, I suppose, beliefs from childhood about what is just and fine, in which we have been brought up as if by parents, obeying and honoring them." "Yes, we do." "Are there not also other practices opposite to these, having pleasures, which flatter our soul and draw it toward themselves, but do not persuade those who are even in any way moderate; rather, they honor those paternal beliefs and obey them?" "That is so." "What then?" I said.
τί οὖν; ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ὅταν τὸν οὕτως ἔχοντα ἐλθὸν ἐρώτημα ἔρηται· τί ἐστι τὸ καλόν, καὶ ἀποκριναμένου ὃ τοῦ νομοθέτου ἤκουεν ἐξελέγχῃ ὁ λόγος, καὶ πολλάκις καὶ πολλαχῇ ἐλέγχων εἰς δόξαν καταβάλῃ ὡς τοῦτο οὐδὲν μᾶλλον καλὸν ἢ αἰσχρόν, καὶ περὶ δικαίου ὡσαύτως καὶ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ ἃ μάλιστα ἦγεν ἐν τιμῇ, μετὰ τοῦτο τί οἴει ποιήσειν αὐτὸν πρὸς αὐτὰ τιμῆς τε πέρι καὶ πειθαρχίας; ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, μήτε τιμᾶν ἔτι ὁμοίως μήτε πείθεσθαι. §7.539ὅταν οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μήτε ταῦτα ἡγῆται τίμια καὶ οἰκεῖα ὥσπερ πρὸ τοῦ, τά τε ἀληθῆ μὴ εὑρίσκῃ, ἔστι πρὸς ὁποῖον βίον ἄλλον ἢ τὸν κολακεύοντα εἰκότως προσχωρήσεται; οὐκ ἔστιν, ἔφη.
"When a question comes to someone who is in this state and asks, 'What is the fine?' and when he answers what he used to hear from the lawgiver, the argument refutes him, and refuting him many times and in many ways, casts him down into the opinion that this is no more fine than shameful, and likewise concerning the just and the good and the things he held in greatest honor—after this, what do you think he will do to them regarding honor and obedience?" "Necessarily," he said, "he will no longer honor them in the same way, nor obey them." "When, therefore," I said, "he no longer considers these things honorable and akin to himself as before, and does not find the true ones, is there any other life he will likely turn to than the one that flatters him?" "There is not," he said.
παράνομος δὴ οἶμαι δόξει γεγονέναι ἐκ νομίμου. ἀνάγκη. οὐκοῦν, ἔφην, εἰκὸς τὸ πάθος τῶν οὕτω λόγων ἁπτομένων καί, ὃ ἄρτι ἔλεγον, πολλῆς συγγνώμης ἄξιον; καὶ ἐλέου γʼ, ἔφη.
"Then, I suppose, he will seem to have become lawless from being law-abiding." "Necessarily." "Is it not, then," I said, "likely that those who thus lay hold of arguments should suffer this, and, as I was just saying, are they not worthy of much forgiveness?" "And of pity, too," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἵνα μὴ γίγνηται ὁ ἔλεος οὗτος περὶ τοὺς τριακοντούτας σοι, εὐλαβουμένῳ παντὶ τρόπῳ τῶν λόγων ἁπτέον; καὶ μάλʼ, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Then, so that this pity does not arise concerning your thirty-year-olds, must they not lay hold of arguments with every caution?" "Very much so," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ μία μὲν εὐλάβεια αὕτη συχνή, τὸ μὴ νέους ὄντας αὐτῶν γεύεσθαι;
"Is not this, then, one major caution—not to let them taste them when they are young?
οἶμαι γάρ σε οὐ λεληθέναι ὅτι οἱ μειρακίσκοι, ὅταν τὸ πρῶτον λόγων γεύωνται, ὡς παιδιᾷ αὐτοῖς καταχρῶνται, ἀεὶ εἰς ἀντιλογίαν χρώμενοι, καὶ μιμούμενοι τοὺς ἐξελέγχοντας αὐτοὶ ἄλλους ἐλέγχουσι, χαίροντες ὥσπερ σκυλάκια τῷ ἕλκειν τε καὶ σπαράττειν τῷ λόγῳ τοὺς πλησίον ἀεί. ὑπερφυῶς μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
For I think it has not escaped you that youngsters, when they first taste arguments, misuse them as a plaything, always using them for contradiction, and imitating those who refute them, they themselves refute others, rejoicing like puppies in always pulling and tearing with argument those near them." "Exceedingly so," he said.
οὐκοῦν ὅταν δὴ πολλοὺς μὲν αὐτοὶ ἐλέγξωσιν, ὑπὸ πολλῶν δὲ ἐλεγχθῶσι, σφόδρα καὶ ταχὺ ἐμπίπτουσιν εἰς τὸ μηδὲν ἡγεῖσθαι ὧνπερ πρότερον· καὶ ἐκ τούτων δὴ αὐτοί τε καὶ τὸ ὅλον φιλοσοφίας πέρι εἰς τοὺς ἄλλους διαβέβληνται. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
"And so, when they themselves have refuted many, and have been refuted by many, they fall violently and quickly into believing nothing of what they did before; and from this, both they themselves and the whole of philosophy are slandered among other people." "Most true," he said.
ὁ δὲ δὴ πρεσβύτερος, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τῆς μὲν τοιαύτης μανίας οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοι μετέχειν, τὸν δὲ διαλέγεσθαι ἐθέλοντα καὶ σκοπεῖν τἀληθὲς μᾶλλον μιμήσεται ἢ τὸν παιδιᾶς χάριν παίζοντα καὶ ἀντιλέγοντα, καὶ αὐτός τε μετριώτερος ἔσται καὶ τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα τιμιώτερον ἀντὶ ἀτιμοτέρου ποιήσει. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
"But the older man," I said, "would not wish to share in such madness, but will rather imitate the one who wishes to discuss and search for the truth, rather than the one who plays and contradicts for the sake of a game; and he himself will be more moderate and will make the pursuit more honorable instead of more dishonored." "Correct," he said.
οὐκοῦν καὶ τὰ προειρημένα τούτου ἐπʼ εὐλαβείᾳ πάντα προείρηται, τὸ τὰς φύσεις κοσμίους εἶναι καὶ στασίμους οἷς τις μεταδώσει τῶν λόγων, καὶ μὴ ὡς νῦν ὁ τυχὼν καὶ οὐδὲν προσήκων ἔρχεται ἐπʼ αὐτό; πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"And were not all the things said before also said beforehand for the sake of this caution—that the natures of those to whom one will impart arguments must be orderly and steadfast, and not, as it is now, that any chance person who has no business with it goes to it?" "Entirely so," he said.
ἀρκεῖ δὴ ἐπὶ λόγων μεταλήψει μεῖναι ἐνδελεχῶς καὶ συντόνως μηδὲν ἄλλο πράττοντι, ἀλλʼ ἀντιστρόφως γυμναζομένῳ τοῖς περὶ τὸ σῶμα γυμνασίοις, ἔτη διπλάσια ἢ τότε; ἕξ, ἔφη, ἢ τέτταρα λέγεις;
"Is it enough, then, to remain in the acquisition of arguments persistently and intensely, doing nothing else, but exercising in a corresponding way to the physical gymnastics, for double the number of years than then?" "Do you mean six," he said, "or four years?"