§7.536παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"Entirely so," he said.
καὶ πρὸς σωφροσύνην, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ ἀνδρείαν καὶ μεγαλοπρέπειαν καὶ πάντα τὰ τῆς ἀρετῆς μέρη οὐχ ἥκιστα δεῖ φυλάττειν τὸν νόθον τε καὶ τὸν γνήσιον.
"And with respect to temperance," I said, "and courage and magnificence and all the parts of virtue, we must no less guard against the bastard and the genuine.
ὅταν γάρ τις μὴ ἐπίστηται πάντῃ τὰ τοιαῦτα σκοπεῖν καὶ ἰδιώτης καὶ πόλις, λανθάνουσι χωλοῖς τε καὶ νόθοις χρώμενοι πρὸς ὅτι ἂν τύχωσι τούτων, οἱ μὲν φίλοις, οἱ δὲ ἄρχουσι. καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, οὕτως ἔχει.
For when someone does not know how to examine such things thoroughly, whether an individual or a city, they unconsciously employ lame and bastard people for whatever they happen to need them for, some as friends, others as rulers." "Very much so," he said.
ἡμῖν δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα διευλαβητέον· ὡς ἐὰν μὲν ἀρτιμελεῖς τε καὶ ἀρτίφρονας ἐπὶ τοσαύτην μάθησιν καὶ τοσαύτην ἄσκησιν κομίσαντες παιδεύωμεν, ἥ τε δίκη ἡμῖν οὐ μέμψεται αὐτή, τήν τε πόλιν καὶ πολιτείαν σώσομεν, ἀλλοίους δὲ ἄγοντες ἐπὶ ταῦτα τἀναντία πάντα καὶ πράξομεν καὶ φιλοσοφίας ἔτι πλείω γέλωτα καταντλήσομεν. αἰσχρὸν μεντἂν εἴη, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"We, then," I said, "must be on our guard against all such things; for if we bring sound-limbed and sound-minded people to such great learning and such great training and educate them, Justice herself will not blame us, and we shall save the city and the constitution; but if we bring people of a different sort to these things, we shall do the exact opposite and pour even more ridicule upon philosophy." "That would indeed be shameful," he said.
πάνυ μὲν οὖν, εἶπον·
"Entirely so," I said.
γελοῖον δʼ ἔγωγε καὶ ἐν τῷ παρόντι τι ἔοικα παθεῖν. τὸ ποῖον; ἔφη.
"And I myself seem to have experienced something ridiculous at present." "What sort of thing?" he said.
ἐπελαθόμην, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι ἐπαίζομεν, καὶ μᾶλλον ἐντεινάμενος εἶπον.
"I forgot," I said, "that we were playing, and I spoke with too much tension.
λέγων γὰρ ἅμα ἔβλεψα πρὸς φιλοσοφίαν, καὶ ἰδὼν προπεπηλακισμένην ἀναξίως ἀγανακτήσας μοι δοκῶ καὶ ὥσπερ θυμωθεὶς τοῖς αἰτίοις σπουδαιότερον εἰπεῖν ἃ εἶπον. οὐ μὰ τὸν Δίʼ, ἔφη, οὔκουν ὥς γʼ ἐμοὶ ἀκροατῇ. ἀλλʼ ὡς ἐμοί, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ῥήτορι.
For as I was speaking, I looked at philosophy, and seeing her unworthily mud-splattered, I think I became indignant, and as if angry with those who are responsible, I spoke what I said too seriously." "By Zeus, no," he said, "at least not to me as a listener." "But to me as the speaker," I said.
τόδε δὲ μὴ ἐπιλανθανώμεθα, ὅτι ἐν μὲν τῇ προτέρᾳ ἐκλογῇ πρεσβύτας ἐξελέγομεν, ἐν δὲ ταύτῃ οὐκ ἐγχωρήσει·
"And let us not forget this, that in our former election we chose elderly men, but in this one it will not be allowed.
Σόλωνι γὰρ οὐ πειστέον ὡς γηράσκων τις πολλὰ δυνατὸς μανθάνειν, ἀλλʼ ἧττον ἢ τρέχειν, νέων δὲ πάντες οἱ μεγάλοι καὶ οἱ πολλοὶ πόνοι. ἀνάγκη, ἔφη.
For we must not believe Solon when he says that someone who is growing old is able to learn many things, but rather he is less able to do so than to run; all great and many labors belong to the young." "Necessarily," he said.
τὰ μὲν τοίνυν λογισμῶν τε καὶ γεωμετριῶν καὶ πάσης τῆς προπαιδείας, ἣν τῆς διαλεκτικῆς δεῖ προπαιδευθῆναι, παισὶν οὖσι χρὴ προβάλλειν, οὐχ ὡς ἐπάναγκες μαθεῖν τὸ σχῆμα τῆς διδαχῆς ποιουμένους. τί δή; ὅτι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὐδὲν μάθημα μετὰ δουλείας τὸν ἐλεύθερον χρὴ μανθάνειν.
"Then, indeed, the studies of calculation and geometry and all the preliminary education that must be taught before dialectic should be put before them while they are still children, not making the form of instruction a matter of compulsion to learn." "Why is that?" "Because," I said, "no free person should learn any study with slavery.
οἱ μὲν γὰρ τοῦ σώματος πόνοι βίᾳ πονούμενοι χεῖρον οὐδὲν τὸ σῶμα ἀπεργάζονται, ψυχῇ δὲ βίαιον οὐδὲν ἔμμονον μάθημα. ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
For physical labors, when performed under compulsion, do not make the body any worse, but in the soul, no forced study remains permanent." "True," he said.
§7.537μὴ τοίνυν βίᾳ, εἶπον, ὦ ἄριστε, τοὺς παῖδας ἐν τοῖς μαθήμασιν ἀλλὰ παίζοντας τρέφε, ἵνα καὶ μᾶλλον οἷός τʼ ᾖς καθορᾶν ἐφʼ ὃ ἕκαστος πέφυκεν. ἔχει ὃ λέγεις, ἔφη, λόγον.
"Therefore, my excellent friend," I said, "do not rear the children in their studies under compulsion, but playing, so that you may also be better able to discern what each is naturally suited for." "What you say makes sense," he said.
οὐκοῦν μνημονεύεις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι καὶ εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ἔφαμεν τοὺς παῖδας εἶναι ἀκτέον ἐπὶ τῶν ἵππων θεωρούς, καὶ ἐάν που ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ, προσακτέον ἐγγὺς καὶ γευστέον αἵματος, ὥσπερ τοὺς σκύλακας; μέμνημαι, ἔφη.
"Do you not remember, then," I said, "that we said the children should also be led into war on horses as spectators, and, if it should be safe anywhere, they should be brought close and given a taste of blood, like puppies?" "I remember," he said.
ἐν πᾶσι δὴ τούτοις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοῖς τε πόνοις καὶ μαθήμασι καὶ φόβοις ὃς ἂν ἐντρεχέστατος ἀεὶ φαίνηται, εἰς ἀριθμόν τινα ἐγκριτέον. ἐν τίνι, ἔφη, ἡλικίᾳ;
"In all these things, then," I said, "the labors, studies, and fears, whoever always appears to be the most agile must be enrolled into a certain number." "At what age?" he said.
ἡνίκα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τῶν ἀναγκαίων γυμνασίων μεθίενται· οὗτος γὰρ ὁ χρόνος, ἐάντε δύο ἐάντε τρία ἔτη γίγνηται, ἀδύνατός τι ἄλλο πρᾶξαι· κόποι γὰρ καὶ ὕπνοι μαθήμασι πολέμιοι.
"When," I said, "they are released from the necessary gymnastics; for this period, whether it turns out to be two or three years, is incapable of doing anything else; for fatigue and sleep are enemies to studies.
καὶ ἅμα μία καὶ αὕτη τῶν βασάνων οὐκ ἐλαχίστη, τίς ἕκαστος ἐν τοῖς γυμνασίοις φανεῖται. πῶς γὰρ οὔκ; ἔφη.
And at the same time, this is also not the least of the tests, how each one will appear in the gymnastics." "How could it not be?" he said.
μετὰ δὴ τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐκ τῶν εἰκοσιετῶν οἱ προκριθέντες τιμάς τε μείζους τῶν ἄλλων οἴσονται, τά τε χύδην μαθήματα παισὶν ἐν τῇ παιδείᾳ γενόμενα τούτοις συνακτέον εἰς σύνοψιν οἰκειότητός τε ἀλλήλων τῶν μαθημάτων καὶ τῆς τοῦ ὄντος φύσεως. μόνη γοῦν, εἶπεν, ἡ τοιαύτη μάθησις βέβαιος, ἐν οἷς ἂν ἐγγένηται.
"After this time, then," I said, "from those of twenty years of age, those who have been pre-selected will receive greater honors than the others, and the studies which were acquired in a scattered manner by them as children in their education must be brought together for them into a comprehensive view of the relationship of the studies to one another and to the nature of being." "At any rate, only such learning is lasting in whomsoever it is implanted," he said.
καὶ μεγίστη γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πεῖρα διαλεκτικῆς φύσεως καὶ μή· ὁ μὲν γὰρ συνοπτικὸς διαλεκτικός, ὁ δὲ μὴ οὔ. συνοίομαι, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"And it is indeed the greatest test," I said, "of a dialectical nature or its lack; for the one who can see things as a whole is a dialectician, and the one who cannot is not." "I agree," he said.
ταῦτα τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δεήσει σε ἐπισκοποῦντα οἳ ἂν μάλιστα τοιοῦτοι ἐν αὐτοῖς ὦσι καὶ μόνιμοι μὲν ἐν μαθήμασι, μόνιμοι δʼ ἐν πολέμῳ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις νομίμοις, τούτους αὖ, ἐπειδὰν τὰ τριάκοντα ἔτη ἐκβαίνωσιν, ἐκ τῶν προκρίτων προκρινάμενον εἰς μείζους τε τιμὰς καθιστάναι καὶ σκοπεῖν, τῇ τοῦ διαλέγεσθαι δυνάμει βασανίζοντα τίς ὀμμάτων καὶ τῆς ἄλλης αἰσθήσεως δυνατὸς μεθιέμενος ἐπʼ αὐτὸ τὸ ὂν μετʼ ἀληθείας ἰέναι.
"These things, then," I said, "it will be necessary for you to examine, and whoever are most of this character among them, and steadfast in studies, steadfast in war and in the other customs—these, in turn, when they pass thirty years of age, selecting them from the pre-selected, you must establish in greater honors and examine, testing them by the power of dialectic, to see who is able, letting go of eyes and the other senses, to go to being itself with truth.
καὶ ἐνταῦθα δὴ πολλῆς φυλακῆς ἔργον, ὦ ἑταῖρε. τί μάλιστα; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
And here indeed, my friend, is a task for great caution." "Why especially?" he said.
οὐκ ἐννοεῖς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὸ νῦν περὶ τὸ διαλέγεσθαι κακὸν γιγνόμενον ὅσον γίγνεται; τὸ ποῖον; ἔφη.
"Do you not perceive," I said, "how great is the evil that currently arises concerning dialectic?" "What sort?" he said.
παρανομίας που, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἐμπίμπλανται.
"They are filled, I suppose, with lawlessness," I said.
καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
"Very much so," he said.
θαυμαστὸν οὖν τι οἴει, εἶπον, πάσχειν αὐτούς, καὶ οὐ συγγιγνώσκεις; πῇ μάλιστα; ἔφη.
"Do you think, then," I said, "that they suffer anything surprising, and do you not forgive them?" "In what way especially?" he said.