§5.473ἆρʼ οἷόν τέ τι πραχθῆναι ὡς λέγεται, ἢ φύσιν ἔχει πρᾶξιν λέξεως ἧττον ἀληθείας ἐφάπτεσθαι, κἂν εἰ μή τῳ δοκεῖ;
"Is it possible for something to be practiced as it is spoken, or is it in the nature of practice to grasp truth less than speech does, even if it does not seem so to someone?
ἀλλὰ σὺ πότερον ὁμολογεῖς οὕτως ἢ οὔ; ὁμολογῶ, ἔφη.
But do you agree to this or not?" "I agree," he said.
τοῦτο μὲν δὴ μὴ ἀνάγκαζέ με, οἷα τῷ λόγῳ διήλθομεν, τοιαῦτα παντάπασι καὶ τῷ ἔργῳ δεῖν γιγνόμενα ἂν ἀποφαίνειν·
"Then do not force me to show that such things as we described in speech must come to be in every way exactly so in deed.
ἀλλʼ, ἐὰν οἷοί τε γενώμεθα εὑρεῖν ὡς ἂν ἐγγύτατα τῶν εἰρημένων πόλις οἰκήσειεν, φάναι ἡμᾶς ἐξηυρηκέναι ὡς δυνατὰ ταῦτα γίγνεσθαι ἃ σὺ ἐπιτάττεις.
But, if we are able to find how a city might be governed closest to what has been said, say that we have found that those things are possible to come to be which you command.
ἢ οὐκ ἀγαπήσεις τούτων τυγχάνων;
Or will you not be satisfied if you obtain this?
ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ ἂν ἀγαπῴην. καὶ γὰρ ἐγώ, ἔφη.
For I would be satisfied." "And I would," he said.
τὸ δὲ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς ἔοικε, πειρώμεθα ζητεῖν τε καὶ ἀποδεικνύναι τί ποτε νῦν κακῶς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι πράττεται διʼ ὃ οὐχ οὕτως οἰκοῦνται, καὶ τίνος ἂν σμικροτάτου μεταβαλόντος ἔλθοι εἰς τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον τῆς πολιτείας πόλις, μάλιστα μὲν ἑνός, εἰ δὲ μή, δυοῖν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι ὀλιγίστων τὸν ἀριθμὸν καὶ σμικροτάτων τὴν δύναμιν. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"Then after this, as it seems, let us try to seek and demonstrate what is now badly done in the cities, because of which they are not governed in this way, and by what smallest change a city might come to this manner of constitution, preferably by one change, and if not, by two, and if not, by the fewest in number and smallest in power." "By all means," he said.
ἑνὸς μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μεταβαλόντος δοκοῦμέν μοι ἔχειν δεῖξαι ὅτι μεταπέσοι ἄν, οὐ μέντοι σμικροῦ γε οὐδὲ ῥᾳδίου, δυνατοῦ δέ. τίνος; ἔφη.
"Then by one thing being changed," I said, "I think we are able to show that it would change over, not indeed a small or easy one, but possible." "What is it?" he said.
ἐπʼ αὐτῷ δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰμὶ ὃ τῷ μεγίστῳ προσῃκάζομεν κύματι.
"I am now at that very thing," I said, "which we likened to the greatest wave.
εἰρήσεται δʼ οὖν, εἰ καὶ μέλλει γέλωτί τε ἀτεχνῶς ὥσπερ κῦμα ἐκγελῶν καὶ ἀδοξίᾳ κατακλύσειν.
But it shall indeed be said, even if it is going to submerge me literally in laughter, like a wave breaking over, and in disrepute.
σκόπει δὲ ὃ μέλλω λέγειν. λέγε, ἔφη.
Look at what I am going to say." "Speak," he said.
ἐὰν μή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἢ οἱ φιλόσοφοι βασιλεύσωσιν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἢ οἱ βασιλῆς τε νῦν λεγόμενοι καὶ δυνάσται φιλοσοφήσωσι γνησίως τε καὶ ἱκανῶς, καὶ τοῦτο εἰς ταὐτὸν συμπέσῃ, δύναμίς τε πολιτικὴ καὶ φιλοσοφία, τῶν δὲ νῦν πορευομένων χωρὶς ἐφʼ ἑκάτερον αἱ πολλαὶ φύσεις ἐξ ἀνάγκης ἀποκλεισθῶσιν, οὐκ ἔστι κακῶν παῦλα, ὦ φίλε Γλαύκων, ταῖς πόλεσι, δοκῶ δʼ οὐδὲ τῷ ἀνθρωπίνῳ γένει, οὐδὲ αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία μή ποτε πρότερον φυῇ τε εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν καὶ φῶς ἡλίου ἴδῃ, ἣν νῦν λόγῳ διεληλύθαμεν.
"Unless," I said, "either philosophers rule in the cities or those now called kings and dynasts genuinely and adequately philosophize, and this coincides in the same—political power and philosophy—and the many natures of those who currently pursue either one separately are of necessity excluded, there is no cessation of evils for the cities, my dear Glaucon, nor, I think, for the human race, nor will this constitution, which we have now described in speech, ever before grow to be possible and see the light of the sun.
ἀλλὰ τοῦτό ἐστιν ὃ ἐμοὶ πάλαι ὄκνον ἐντίθησι λέγειν, ὁρῶντι ὡς πολὺ παρὰ δόξαν ῥηθήσεται· χαλεπὸν γὰρ ἰδεῖν ὅτι οὐκ ἂν ἄλλη τις εὐδαιμονήσειεν οὔτε ἰδίᾳ οὔτε δημοσίᾳ. §5.474καὶ ὅς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, τοιοῦτον ἐκβέβληκας ῥῆμά τε καὶ λόγον, ὃν εἰπὼν ἡγοῦ ἐπὶ σὲ πάνυ πολλούς τε καὶ οὐ φαύλους νῦν οὕτως, οἷον ῥίψαντας τὰ ἱμάτια, γυμνοὺς λαβόντας ὅτι ἑκάστῳ παρέτυχεν ὅπλον, θεῖν διατεταμένους ὡς θαυμάσια ἐργασομένους·
But this is what has long made me hesitate to speak, seeing how very contrary to common opinion it will be said; for it is difficult to see that no other city could be happy either privately or publicly." And he said, "Socrates, you have thrown out such a statement and argument, which having spoken, expect that very many and not ordinary people will now, as if throwing off their cloaks, stripped, seizing whatever weapon happened to be at hand for each, run at you in full tension as if about to perform wonderful deeds.
οὓς εἰ μὴ ἀμυνῇ τῷ λόγῳ καὶ ἐκφεύξῃ, τῷ ὄντι τωθαζόμενος δώσεις δίκην. οὐκοῦν σύ μοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τούτων αἴτιος;
If you do not defend yourself with argument and escape them, you will pay the penalty by being genuinely mocked." "Are you not then the cause of this for me?" I said.
καλῶς γʼ, ἔφη, ἐγὼ ποιῶν.
"And I did well," he said.
ἀλλά τοί σε οὐ προδώσω, ἀλλʼ ἀμυνῶ οἷς δύναμαι· δύναμαι δὲ εὐνοίᾳ τε καὶ τῷ παρακελεύεσθαι, καὶ ἴσως ἂν ἄλλου του ἐμμελέστερόν σοι ἀποκρινοίμην.
"But indeed, I will not betray you, but will defend you with what I can; and I can do so with goodwill and encouragement, and perhaps I might answer you more suitably than another.
ἀλλʼ ὡς ἔχων τοιοῦτον βοηθὸν πειρῶ τοῖς ἀπιστοῦσιν ἐνδείξασθαι ὅτι ἔχει ᾗ σὺ λέγεις. πειρατέον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐπειδὴ καὶ σὺ οὕτω μεγάλην συμμαχίαν παρέχῃ.
But, as having such a helper, try to demonstrate to those who disbelieve that it is as you say." "I must try," I said, "since you also provide such a great alliance.
ἀναγκαῖον οὖν μοι δοκεῖ, εἰ μέλλομέν πῃ ἐκφεύξεσθαι οὓς λέγεις, διορίσασθαι πρὸς αὐτοὺς τοὺς φιλοσόφους τίνας λέγοντες τολμῶμεν φάναι δεῖν ἄρχειν, ἵνα διαδήλων γενομένων δύνηταί τις ἀμύνεσθαι, ἐνδεικνύμενος ὅτι τοῖς μὲν προσήκει φύσει ἅπτεσθαί τε φιλοσοφίας ἡγεμονεύειν τʼ ἐν πόλει, τοῖς δʼ ἄλλοις μήτε ἅπτεσθαι ἀκολουθεῖν τε τῷ ἡγουμένῳ. ὥρα ἂν εἴη, ἔφη, ὁρίζεσθαι. ἴθι δή, ἀκολούθησόν μοι τῇδε, ἐὰν αὐτὸ ἁμῇ γέ πῃ ἱκανῶς ἐξηγησώμεθα. ἄγε, ἔφη.
It seems necessary, then, if we are to escape those you mention, to define for them who the philosophers are whom we dare to say must rule, so that, they being made clear, one can defend oneself, demonstrating that to some it belongs by nature to touch upon philosophy and to lead in the city, and to others not to touch it but to follow the leader." "It would be time," he said, "to define them." "Come then, follow me this way, if we can explain it adequately in some way." "Lead on," he said.
ἀναμιμνῄσκειν οὖν σε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δεήσει, ἢ μέμνησαι ὅτι ὃν ἂν φῶμεν φιλεῖν τι, δεῖ φανῆναι αὐτόν, ἐὰν ὀρθῶς λέγηται, οὐ τὸ μὲν φιλοῦντα ἐκείνου, τὸ δὲ μή, ἀλλὰ πᾶν στέργοντα; ἀναμιμνῄσκειν, ἔφη, ὡς ἔοικεν, δεῖ· οὐ γὰρ πάνυ γε ἐννοῶ. ἄλλῳ, εἶπον, ἔπρεπεν, ὦ Γλαύκων, λέγειν ἃ λέγεις· ἀνδρὶ δʼ ἐρωτικῷ οὐ πρέπει ἀμνημονεῖν ὅτι πάντες οἱ ἐν ὥρᾳ τὸν φιλόπαιδα καὶ ἐρωτικὸν ἁμῇ γέ πῃ δάκνουσί τε καὶ κινοῦσι, δοκοῦντες ἄξιοι εἶναι ἐπιμελείας τε καὶ τοῦ ἀσπάζεσθαι.
"Will it be necessary, then," I said, "to remind you, or do you remember, that whoever we say loves something, he must appear, if it is said correctly, not loving one part of it and not another, but cherished as a whole?" "To remind me, as it seems, is necessary," he said, "for I do not entirely understand." "It would have been fitting for another, Glaucon," I said, "to say what you say; but for an amorous man it is not fitting to forget that all those in their youth in some way bite and move the lover of boys and the amorous man, seeming worthy of care and of being embraced.
ἢ οὐχ οὕτω ποιεῖτε πρὸς τοὺς καλούς;
Or do you not act in this way toward the beautiful?
ὁ μέν, ὅτι σιμός, ἐπίχαρις κληθεὶς ἐπαινεθήσεται ὑφʼ ὑμῶν, τοῦ δὲ τὸ γρυπὸν βασιλικόν φατε εἶναι, τὸν δὲ δὴ διὰ μέσου τούτων ἐμμετρώτατα ἔχειν, μέλανας δὲ ἀνδρικοὺς ἰδεῖν, λευκοὺς δὲ θεῶν παῖδας εἶναι·
One, because of being snub-nosed, will be praised by you being called charming, and another's hook-nose you say is kingly, and the one between these has the most symmetrical nose, and the dark are manly to look at, and the fair are children of the gods.
μελιχλώρους δὲ καὶ τοὔνομα οἴει τινὸς ἄλλου ποίημα εἶναι ἢ ἐραστοῦ ὑποκοριζομένου τε καὶ εὐχερῶς φέροντος τὴν ὠχρότητα, ἐὰν ἐπὶ ὥρᾳ ᾖ;
And 'honey-skinned', do you think this name is the creation of anyone else than a lover who coos and easily bears paleness, if it is in the bloom of youth?"