§5.471οὐκοῦν τὴν πρὸς τοὺς Ἕλληνας διαφοράν, ὡς οἰκείους, στάσιν ἡγήσονται καὶ οὐδὲ ὀνομάσουσιν πόλεμον; οὐ γάρ. καὶ ὡς διαλλαγησόμενοι ἄρα διοίσονται; πάνυ μὲν οὖν. εὐμενῶς δὴ σωφρονιοῦσιν, οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες οὐδʼ ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ, σωφρονισταὶ ὄντες, οὐ πολέμιοι. οὕτως, ἔφη.
"Will they not, then, regard their disagreement with the Greeks as factional strife, since they are kindred, and not even call it war?" "Certainly not." "And will they then disagree with the mind of being reconciled?" "Most certainly." "Then they will correct them benevolently, not punishing them for enslavement or destruction, being correctors and not enemies." "So it is," he said.
οὐδʼ ἄρα τὴν Ἑλλάδα Ἕλληνες ὄντες κεροῦσιν, οὐδὲ οἰκήσεις ἐμπρήσουσιν, οὐδὲ ὁμολογήσουσιν ἐν ἑκάστῃ πόλει πάντας ἐχθροὺς αὑτοῖς εἶναι, καὶ ἄνδρας καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ παῖδας, ἀλλʼ ὀλίγους ἀεὶ ἐχθροὺς τοὺς αἰτίους τῆς διαφορᾶς. καὶ διὰ ταῦτα πάντα οὔτε τὴν γῆν ἐθελήσουσιν κείρειν αὐτῶν, ὡς φίλων τῶν πολλῶν, οὔτε οἰκίας ἀνατρέπειν, ἀλλὰ μέχρι τούτου ποιήσονται τὴν διαφοράν, μέχρι οὗ ἂν οἱ αἴτιοι ἀναγκασθῶσιν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀναιτίων ἀλγούντων δοῦναι δίκην. ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, ὁμολογῶ οὕτω δεῖν πρὸς τοὺς ἐναντίους τοὺς ἡμετέρους πολίτας προσφέρεσθαι· πρὸς δὲ τοὺς βαρβάρους, ὡς νῦν οἱ Ἕλληνες πρὸς ἀλλήλους. τιθῶμεν δὴ καὶ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον τοῖς φύλαξι, μήτε γῆν τέμνειν μήτε οἰκίας ἐμπιμπράναι; θῶμεν, ἔφη, καὶ ἔχειν γε καλῶς ταῦτά τε καὶ τὰ πρόσθεν. ἀλλὰ γάρ μοι δοκεῖς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐάν τίς σοι τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐπιτρέπῃ λέγειν, οὐδέποτε μνησθήσεσθαι ὃ ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν παρωσάμενος πάντα ταῦτα εἴρηκας, τὸ ὡς δυνατὴ αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία γενέσθαι καὶ τίνα τρόπον ποτὲ δυνατή·
"Nor then, being Greeks, will they ravage Greece, nor burn houses, nor agree that in each city everyone is their enemy—both men, women, and children—but they will always regard only the few who caused the disagreement as enemies." "And for all these reasons, they will not be willing to ravage their land, since the majority are friends, nor to overturn houses, but they will carry on the disagreement only until the guilty are forced to pay the penalty by the innocent who are suffering." "For my part," he said, "I agree that our citizens must behave in this way toward their opponents; but toward the barbarians, they should act as the Greeks now do toward one another." "Shall we then establish this law also for the guardians, neither to ravage land nor to burn houses?" "Let us establish it," he said, "and both these and the previous rules are excellent." "But indeed, Socrates, you seem to me, if someone permits you to speak on such matters, never likely to remember what you pushed aside before to say all these things—namely, how this constitution is possible and in what way it might be possible.
ἐπεὶ ὅτι γε, εἰ γένοιτο, πάντʼ ἂν εἴη ἀγαθὰ πόλει ᾗ γένοιτο, καὶ ἃ σὺ παραλείπεις ἐγὼ λέγω, ὅτι καὶ τοῖς πολεμίοις ἄριστʼ ἂν μάχοιντο τῷ ἥκιστα ἀπολείπειν ἀλλήλους, γιγνώσκοντές τε καὶ ἀνακαλοῦντες ταῦτα τὰ ὀνόματα ἑαυτούς, ἀδελφούς, πατέρας, ὑεῖς·
Since indeed, if it should come to be, all things would be good for the city in which it came to be, and I will mention what you leave out: they would fight their enemies best by least deserting one another, recognizing and calling one another by these names—brothers, fathers, sons.
εἰ δὲ καὶ τὸ θῆλυ συστρατεύοιτο, εἴτε καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ τάξει εἴτε καὶ ὄπισθεν ἐπιτεταγμένον, φόβων τε ἕνεκα τοῖς ἐχθροῖς καὶ εἴ ποτέ τις ἀνάγκη βοηθείας γένοιτο, οἶδʼ ὅτι ταύτῃ πάντῃ ἄμαχοι ἂν εἶεν·
And if the female sex should also campaign with them, whether in the same rank or stationed behind, to strike fear into the enemies and in case any need of assistance should ever arise, I know that in this way they would be completely invincible.
καὶ οἴκοι γε ἃ παραλείπεται ἀγαθά, ὅσα ἂν εἴη αὐτοῖς, ὁρῶ.
And at home, too, I see what goods are left out, as many as they would have.
ἀλλʼ ὡς ἐμοῦ ὁμολογοῦντος πάντα ταῦτα ὅτι εἴη ἂν καὶ ἄλλα γε μυρία, εἰ γένοιτο ἡ πολιτεία αὕτη, μηκέτι πλείω περὶ αὐτῆς λέγε, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἤδη πειρώμεθα ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς πείθειν, ὡς δυνατὸν καὶ ᾗ δυνατόν, τὰ δʼ ἄλλα χαίρειν ἐῶμεν. §5.472ἐξαίφνης γε σύ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὥσπερ καταδρομὴν ἐποιήσω ἐπὶ τὸν λόγον μου, καὶ οὐ συγγιγνώσκεις στραγγευομένῳ.
But since I agree that all these things would be so, and indeed countless others, if this constitution should come to be, speak no more about it, but let us now try to convince ourselves of this very thing: how it is possible and in what way it is possible, and let us let the other things go." "Suddenly indeed," I said, "you have made an assault upon my argument, and you show no indulgence to my dilatoriness.
ἴσως γὰρ οὐκ οἶσθα ὅτι μόγις μοι τὼ δύο κύματε ἐκφυγόντι νῦν τὸ μέγιστον καὶ χαλεπώτατον τῆς τρικυμίας ἐπάγεις, ὃ ἐπειδὰν ἴδῃς τε καὶ ἀκούσῃς, πάνυ συγγνώμην ἕξεις, ὅτι εἰκότως ἄρα ὤκνουν τε καὶ ἐδεδοίκη οὕτω παράδοξον λόγον λέγειν τε καὶ ἐπιχειρεῖν διασκοπεῖν. ὅσῳ ἄν, ἔφη, τοιαῦτα πλείω λέγῃς, ἧττον ἀφεθήσῃ ὑφʼ ἡμῶν πρὸς τὸ μὴ εἰπεῖν πῇ δυνατὴ γίγνεσθαι αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία. ἀλλὰ λέγε καὶ μὴ διάτριβε.
For perhaps you do not know that after I have barely escaped the two waves, you are now bringing upon me the greatest and most difficult wave of the triple crest; which when you see and hear, you will have complete indulgence, recognizing that I was naturally hesitant and afraid to speak of and undertake to examine so paradoxical an argument." "The more such things you say," he said, "the less you will be released by us from telling how this constitution is possible of coming into being.
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πρῶτον μὲν τόδε χρὴ ἀναμνησθῆναι, ὅτι ἡμεῖς ζητοῦντες δικαιοσύνην οἷόν ἐστι καὶ ἀδικίαν δεῦρο ἥκομεν. χρή· ἀλλὰ τί τοῦτο; ἔφη.
So speak and do not delay." "Then," I said, "first we must remember this, that we have come to this point while seeking what justice is and what injustice is." "We must; but what of it?" he said.
οὐδέν· ἀλλʼ ἐὰν εὕρωμεν οἷόν ἐστι δικαιοσύνη, ἆρα καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν δίκαιον ἀξιώσομεν μηδὲν δεῖν αὐτῆς ἐκείνης διαφέρειν, ἀλλὰ πανταχῇ τοιοῦτον εἶναι οἷον δικαιοσύνη ἐστίν;
"Nothing; but if we find what justice is, shall we also demand that the just man must not differ in any way from justice itself, but must be in every way such as justice is?
ἢ ἀγαπήσομεν ἐὰν ὅτι ἐγγύτατα αὐτῆς ᾖ καὶ πλεῖστα τῶν ἄλλων ἐκείνης μετέχῃ; οὕτως, ἔφη· ἀγαπήσομεν. παραδείγματος ἄρα ἕνεκα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐζητοῦμεν αὐτό τε δικαιοσύνην οἷόν ἐστι, καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν τελέως δίκαιον εἰ γένοιτο, καὶ οἷος ἂν εἴη γενόμενος, καὶ ἀδικίαν αὖ καὶ τὸν ἀδικώτατον, ἵνα εἰς ἐκείνους ἀποβλέποντες, οἷοι ἂν ἡμῖν φαίνωνται εὐδαιμονίας τε πέρι καὶ τοῦ ἐναντίου, ἀναγκαζώμεθα καὶ περὶ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ὁμολογεῖν, ὃς ἂν ἐκείνοις ὅτι ὁμοιότατος ᾖ, τὴν ἐκείνης μοῖραν ὁμοιοτάτην ἕξειν, ἀλλʼ οὐ τούτου ἕνεκα, ἵνʼ ἀποδείξωμεν ὡς δυνατὰ ταῦτα γίγνεσθαι. τοῦτο μέν, ἔφη, ἀληθὲς λέγεις. οἴει ἂν οὖν ἧττόν τι ἀγαθὸν ζωγράφον εἶναι ὃς ἂν γράψας παράδειγμα οἷον ἂν εἴη ὁ κάλλιστος ἄνθρωπος καὶ πάντα εἰς τὸ γράμμα ἱκανῶς ἀποδοὺς μὴ ἔχῃ ἀποδεῖξαι ὡς καὶ δυνατὸν γενέσθαι τοιοῦτον ἄνδρα; μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
Or shall we be satisfied if he is as close to it as possible and participates in it more than others?" "In this way," he said, "we shall be satisfied." "Then for the sake of a pattern," I said, "we were seeking both what justice itself is, and the perfectly just man if he should come to be, and what he would be like if he existed, and on the other hand, injustice and the most unjust man, in order that, looking at them, to see what they appear to us in regard to happiness and its opposite, we might be forced to agree also about ourselves, that whoever is most like them will have a portion most like theirs—but not for the sake of demonstrating that these things are possible of coming to be." "This indeed," he said, "you say truly." "Do you think, then, that he is any less a good painter who, having painted a pattern of what the most beautiful man would be like and having adequately rendered everything in his drawing, is unable to demonstrate that it is also possible for such a man to come to be?" "By Zeus, not I," he said.
τί οὖν;
"What then?
οὐ καὶ ἡμεῖς, φαμέν, παράδειγμα ἐποιοῦμεν λόγῳ ἀγαθῆς πόλεως; πάνυ γε. ἧττόν τι οὖν οἴει ἡμᾶς εὖ λέγειν τούτου ἕνεκα, ἐὰν μὴ ἔχωμεν ἀποδεῖξαι ὡς δυνατὸν οὕτω πόλιν οἰκῆσαι ὡς ἐλέγετο; οὐ δῆτα, ἔφη.
Did we not also, as we say, construct a pattern in speech of a good city?" "Certainly." "Do you think, then, that we speak any less well for this reason, if we are unable to demonstrate that it is possible to govern a city as was described?" "No indeed," he said.
τὸ μὲν τοίνυν ἀληθές, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὕτω·
"That indeed is the truth," I said.
εἰ δὲ δὴ καὶ τοῦτο προθυμηθῆναι δεῖ σὴν χάριν, ἀποδεῖξαι πῇ μάλιστα καὶ κατὰ τί δυνατώτατʼ ἂν εἴη, πάλιν μοι πρὸς τὴν τοιαύτην ἀπόδειξιν τὰ αὐτὰ διομολόγησαι.
"But if, then, we must also be eager for your sake to demonstrate how and in what respect it would be most possible, agree with me again on the same points for the sake of such a demonstration.
τὰ ποῖα;
What points?"