§5.465καὶ γὰρ τόδε ὀρθὸν ἔχει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὗτος ὁ νόμος· εἴ πού τίς τῳ θυμοῖτο, ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ πληρῶν τὸν θυμὸν ἧττον ἐπὶ μείζους ἂν ἴοι στάσεις. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. πρεσβυτέρῳ μὴν νεωτέρων πάντων ἄρχειν τε καὶ κολάζειν προστετάξεται. δῆλον. καὶ μὴν ὅτι γε νεώτερος πρεσβύτερον, ἂν μὴ ἄρχοντες προστάττωσιν, οὔτε ἄλλο βιάζεσθαι ἐπιχειρήσει ποτὲ οὔτε τύπτειν, ὡς τὸ εἰκός.
“And indeed, this law is correct,” I said. “If anyone should be angry with someone, by satisfying his anger in such a situation, he would be less likely to go on to greater factions.” “Entirely so.” “Furthermore, the older will be commanded to rule over and punish all the younger.” “Clearly.” “And indeed, that a younger person will never attempt to use violence against or strike an older person, unless the rulers command it, is likely.
οἶμαι δʼ οὐδὲ ἄλλως ἀτιμάσει· ἱκανὼ γὰρ τὼ φύλακε κωλύοντε, δέος τε καὶ αἰδώς, αἰδὼς μὲν ὡς γονέων μὴ ἅπτεσθαι εἴργουσα, δέος δὲ τὸ τῷ πάσχοντι τοὺς ἄλλους βοηθεῖν, τοὺς μὲν ὡς ὑεῖς, τοὺς δὲ ὡς ἀδελφούς, τοὺς δὲ ὡς πατέρας. συμβαίνει γὰρ οὕτως, ἔφη. πανταχῇ δὴ ἐκ τῶν νόμων εἰρήνην πρὸς ἀλλήλους οἱ ἄνδρες ἄξουσι; πολλήν γε. τούτων μὴν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς μὴ στασιαζόντων οὐδὲν δεινὸν μή ποτε ἡ ἄλλη πόλις πρὸς τούτους ἢ πρὸς ἀλλήλους διχοστατήσῃ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν. τά γε μὴν σμικρότατα τῶν κακῶν διʼ ἀπρέπειαν ὀκνῶ καὶ λέγειν, ὧν ἀπηλλαγμένοι ἂν εἶεν, κολακείας τε πλουσίων πένητες ἀπορίας τε καὶ ἀλγηδόνας ὅσας ἐν παιδοτροφίᾳ καὶ χρηματισμοῖς διὰ τροφὴν οἰκετῶν ἀναγκαίαν ἴσχουσι, τὰ μὲν δανειζόμενοι, τὰ δʼ ἐξαρνούμενοι, τὰ δὲ πάντως πορισάμενοι θέμενοι παρὰ γυναῖκάς τε καὶ οἰκέτας, ταμιεύειν παραδόντες, ὅσα τε, ὦ φίλε, περὶ αὐτὰ καὶ οἷα πάσχουσι, δῆλά τε δὴ καὶ ἀγεννῆ καὶ οὐκ ἄξια λέγειν.
Nor do I think he will dishonor him in any other way; for the two guardians are sufficient to prevent it, fear and shame—shame on the one hand preventing him from touching his parents, and fear on the other hand because the others will come to the aid of the sufferer, some as sons, some as brothers, and some as fathers.” “For it turns out that way,” he said. “Will the men, then, by these laws, keep peace with one another in every way?” “A great peace indeed.” “And as long as these do not engage in faction among themselves, there is no danger that the rest of the city will ever split into factions against them or against one another.” “None at all.” “But the smallest of evils, because of their unseemliness, I hesitate even to mention, from which they would be freed: the flattery of the rich by the poor, and all the difficulties and pains they suffer in rearing children and in making money for the necessary support of household servants—now borrowing, now denying debts, now by all means acquiring resources and placing them in the hands of their wives and servants, handing them over to be managed.
δῆλα γάρ, ἔφη, καὶ τυφλῷ. πάντων τε δὴ τούτων ἀπαλλάξονται, ζήσουσί τε τοῦ μακαριστοῦ βίου ὃν οἱ Ὀλυμπιονῖκαι ζῶσι μακαριώτερον. πῇ; διὰ σμικρόν που μέρος εὐδαιμονίζονται ἐκεῖνοι ὧν τούτοις ὑπάρχει.
What they suffer and of what sort around these things, my friend, is obvious, base, and not worth mentioning.” “Yes, they are obvious,” he said, “even to a blind man.” “And they will be rid of all these things, and will live a life more blessed than the blessed life which the Olympic victors live.” “How?” “In comparison with what belongs to these, those victors are deemed happy for only a small part.
ἥ τε γὰρ τῶνδε νίκη καλλίων, ἥ τʼ ἐκ τοῦ δημοσίου τροφὴ τελεωτέρα.
For the victory of these is more noble, and their public support more complete.
νίκην τε γὰρ νικῶσι συμπάσης τῆς πόλεως σωτηρίαν, τροφῇ τε καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις πᾶσιν ὅσων βίος δεῖται αὐτοί τε καὶ παῖδες ἀναδοῦνται, καὶ γέρα δέχονται παρὰ τῆς αὑτῶν πόλεως ζῶντές τε καὶ τελευτήσαντες ταφῆς ἀξίας μετέχουσιν. καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, καλά.
For they win a victory which is the salvation of the whole city, and they and their children are crowned and receive support and all other things that life requires, and they receive prizes from their own city while living, and at their death they share in a worthy burial.” “Very beautiful indeed,” he said.
§5.466μέμνησαι οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν οὐκ οἶδα ὅτου λόγος ἡμῖν ἐπέπληξεν ὅτι τοὺς φύλακας οὐκ εὐδαίμονας ποιοῖμεν, οἷς ἐξὸν πάντα ἔχειν τὰ τῶν πολιτῶν οὐδὲν ἔχοιεν; ἡμεῖς δέ που εἴπομεν ὅτι τοῦτο μέν, εἴ που παραπίπτοι, εἰς αὖθις σκεψοίμεθα, νῦν δὲ τοὺς μὲν φύλακας φύλακας ποιοῖμεν, τὴν δὲ πόλιν ὡς οἷοί τʼ εἶμεν εὐδαιμονεστάτην, ἀλλʼ οὐκ εἰς ἓν ἔθνος ἀποβλέποντες ἐν αὐτῇ τοῦτο εὔδαιμον πλάττοιμεν; μέμνημαι, ἔφη. τί οὖν;
“Do you remember then,” I said, “that in our earlier discussion some argument—I know not whose—reproached us, saying that we were not making the guardians happy, since it was open to them to have everything belonging to the citizens, yet they possessed nothing?” “We said, I suppose,” he said, “that if this should happen to come up, we would examine it later, but for the present we were making the guardians guardians, and the city as happy as we could, but we were not looking to one class alone in it to fashion this as happy.” “I remember,” he said. “What then?
νῦν ἡμῖν ὁ τῶν ἐπικούρων βίος, εἴπερ τοῦ γε τῶν Ὀλυμπιονικῶν πολύ τε καλλίων καὶ ἀμείνων φαίνεται, μή πῃ κατὰ τὸν τῶν σκυτοτόμων φαίνεται βίον ἤ τινων ἄλλων δημιουργῶν ἢ τὸν τῶν γεωργῶν; οὔ μοι δοκεῖ, ἔφη. ἀλλὰ μέντοι, ὅ γε καὶ ἐκεῖ ἔλεγον, δίκαιον καὶ ἐνταῦθα εἰπεῖν, ὅτι εἰ οὕτως ὁ φύλαξ ἐπιχειρήσει εὐδαίμων γίγνεσθαι, ὥστε μηδὲ φύλαξ εἶναι, μηδʼ ἀρκέσει αὐτῷ βίος οὕτω μέτριος καὶ βέβαιος καὶ ὡς ἡμεῖς φαμεν ἄριστος, ἀλλʼ ἀνόητός τε καὶ μειρακιώδης δόξα ἐμπεσοῦσα εὐδαιμονίας πέρι ὁρμήσει αὐτὸν διὰ δύναμιν ἐπὶ τὸ ἅπαντα τὰ ἐν τῇ πόλει οἰκειοῦσθαι, γνώσεται τὸν Ἡσίοδον ὅτι τῷ ὄντι ἦν σοφὸς λέγων
"πλέον"
εἶναί πως
"ἥμισυ παντός. "
ἐμοὶ μέν, ἔφη, συμβούλῳ χρώμενος μενεῖ ἐπὶ τούτῳ τῷ βίῳ. συγχωρεῖς ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν κοινωνίαν τοῖς ἀνδράσιν, ἣν διεληλύθαμεν, παιδείας τε πέρι καὶ παίδων καὶ φυλακῆς τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν, κατά τε πόλιν μενούσας εἰς πόλεμόν τε ἰούσας καὶ συμφυλάττειν δεῖν καὶ συνθηρεύειν ὥσπερ κύνας, καὶ πάντα πάντῃ κατὰ τὸ δυνατὸν κοινωνεῖν, καὶ ταῦτα πραττούσας τά τε βέλτιστα πράξειν καὶ οὐ παρὰ φύσιν τὴν τοῦ θήλεος πρὸς τὸ ἄρρεν, ᾗ πεφύκατον πρὸς ἀλλήλω κοινωνεῖν; συγχωρῶ, ἔφη. οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐκεῖνο λοιπὸν διελέσθαι, εἰ ἄρα καὶ ἐν ἀνθρώποις δυνατόν, ὥσπερ ἐν ἄλλοις ζῴοις, ταύτην τὴν κοινωνίαν ἐγγενέσθαι, καὶ ὅπῃ δυνατόν; ἔφθης, ἔφη, εἰπὼν ᾗ ἔμελλον ὑπολήψεσθαι. περὶ μὲν γὰρ τῶν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ οἶμαι, ἔφην, δῆλον ὃν τρόπον πολεμήσουσιν. πῶς; ἦ δʼ ὅς. ὅτι κοινῇ στρατεύσονται, καὶ πρός γε ἄξουσι τῶν παίδων εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ὅσοι ἁδροί, ἵνʼ ὥσπερ οἱ τῶν ἄλλων δημιουργῶν θεῶνται ταῦτα ἃ τελεωθέντας δεήσει δημιουργεῖν·
Now that the life of the helpers appears to be far more noble and better than that of the Olympic victors, does it in any way appear to be like the life of shoemakers or of some other artisans, or that of husbandmen?” “It does not seem so to me,” he said. “But indeed, what I said there is also right to say here: that if the guardian should attempt to become happy in such a way that he is no longer even a guardian, and a life so moderate and secure and, as we say, best, will not satisfy him, but a foolish and childish opinion about happiness should fall upon him and drive him, through his power, to appropriate everything in the city, he will know Hesiod, that he was indeed wise when he said ‘the half’ is somehow ‘more than the whole.’” “If he uses me as an advisor,” he said, “he will remain in this life.” “You agree then,” I said, “to the community of wives with the men, which we have described, both regarding education and children and the guardianship of the other citizens, that they must remain in the city and go out to war, and guard and hunt together like dogs, and share in everything in every way as far as possible, and that by doing this they will act for the best and not contrary to the nature of the female in relation to the male, in the way they are naturally suited to share with one another?” “I agree,” he said. “Is it not, then,” I said, “what remains to distinguish whether this community is indeed possible among human beings, as it is among other animals, and in what way it is possible?” “You have anticipated me,” he said, “in saying what I was going to take up.” “For as for the matters in war, I suppose,” I said, “it is clear in what manner they will wage war.” “How?” he said. “That they will campaign in common, and moreover, they will bring along those of their children who are robust, so that, just like the children of other artisans, they may look on at those things which they must craft when they are fully grown.”