§5.463τί οὖν;
“What then?
ἔστι μέν που καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσιν ἄρχοντές τε καὶ δῆμος, ἔστι δὲ καὶ ἐν ταύτῃ; ἔστι. πολίτας μὲν δὴ πάντες οὗτοι ἀλλήλους προσεροῦσι; πῶς δʼ οὔ; ἀλλὰ πρὸς τῷ πολίτας τί ὁ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις δῆμος τοὺς ἄρχοντας προσαγορεύει; ἐν μὲν ταῖς πολλαῖς δεσπότας, ἐν δὲ ταῖς δημοκρατουμέναις αὐτὸ τοὔνομα τοῦτο, ἄρχοντας. τί δʼ ὁ ἐν τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ δῆμος;
Are there not, I suppose, rulers and people in the other cities, as there are also in this one?” “There are.” “And will all of these address one another as citizens?” “How could they not?” “But besides calling them citizens, what does the people in the other cities address the rulers?” “In most of them, ‘masters,’ and in those governed by democracy, by this very name, ‘rulers.’” “And what about the people in our city?
πρὸς τῷ πολίτας τί τοὺς ἄρχοντάς φησιν εἶναι; σωτῆράς τε καὶ ἐπικούρους, ἔφη. τί δʼ οὗτοι τὸν δῆμον; μισθοδότας τε καὶ τροφέας. οἱ δʼ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις ἄρχοντες τοὺς δήμους; δούλους, ἔφη. τί δʼ οἱ ἄρχοντες ἀλλήλους; συνάρχοντας, ἔφη. τί δʼ οἱ ἡμέτεροι; συμφύλακας. ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσιν, εἴ τίς τινα ἔχει προσειπεῖν τῶν συναρχόντων τὸν μὲν ὡς οἰκεῖον, τὸν δʼ ὡς ἀλλότριον; καὶ πολλούς γε. οὐκοῦν τὸν μὲν οἰκεῖον ὡς ἑαυτοῦ νομίζει τε καὶ λέγει, τὸν δʼ ἀλλότριον ὡς οὐχ ἑαυτοῦ; οὕτω. τί δὲ οἱ παρὰ σοὶ φύλακες;
Besides calling them citizens, what does it say the rulers are?” “Saviors and helpers,” he said. “And what do these rulers call the people?” “Paymasters and nurturers.” “And what do the rulers in the other cities call the people?” “Slaves,” he said. “And what do the rulers call one another?” “Co-rulers,” he said. “And ours?” “Co-guardians.” “Can you say, then, of the rulers in the other cities, whether any of them can address one of their co-rulers as ‘one of his own,’ and another as ‘an outsider’?” “Yes, many of them.” “Therefore, does he not regard and speak of the one of his own as belonging to him, and the outsider as not belonging to him?” “Just so.” “And what about the guardians in your city?
ἔσθʼ ὅστις αὐτῶν ἔχοι ἂν τῶν συμφυλάκων νομίσαι τινὰ ἢ προσειπεῖν ὡς ἀλλότριον; οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη· παντὶ γὰρ ᾧ ἂν ἐντυγχάνῃ, ἢ ὡς ἀδελφῷ ἢ ὡς ἀδελφῇ ἢ ὡς πατρὶ ἢ ὡς μητρὶ ἢ ὑεῖ ἢ θυγατρὶ ἢ τούτων ἐκγόνοις ἢ προγόνοις νομιεῖ ἐντυγχάνειν. κάλλιστα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις, ἀλλʼ ἔτι καὶ τόδε εἰπέ· πότερον αὐτοῖς τὰ ὀνόματα μόνον οἰκεῖα νομοθετήσεις, ἢ καὶ τὰς πράξεις πάσας κατὰ τὰ ὀνόματα πράττειν, περί τε τοὺς πατέρας, ὅσα νόμος περὶ πατέρας αἰδοῦς τε πέρι καὶ κηδεμονίας καὶ τοῦ ὑπήκοον δεῖν εἶναι τῶν γονέων, ἢ μήτε πρὸς θεῶν μήτε πρὸς ἀνθρώπων αὐτῷ ἄμεινον ἔσεσθαι, ὡς οὔτε ὅσια οὔτε δίκαια πράττοντος ἄν, εἰ ἄλλα πράττοι ἢ ταῦτα;
Could any of them regard or address any of their co-guardians as an outsider?” “In no way,” he said; “for everyone he meets, he will regard as someone he meets who is either a brother, or a sister, or a father, or a mother, or a son, or a daughter, or the offspring or ancestors of these.” “Most excellently spoken,” I said, “but tell me this too: will you legislate for them only these names of kinship, or also that they must perform all their actions in accordance with these names, especially toward their fathers—all that the law prescribes concerning fathers regarding reverence, care, and the duty of being obedient to parents, or else, if he should act otherwise than this, it will be better for him neither before the gods nor before men, since he would be acting in a way that is neither holy nor just?
αὗταί σοι ἢ ἄλλαι φῆμαι ἐξ ἁπάντων τῶν πολιτῶν ὑμνήσουσιν εὐθὺς περὶ τὰ τῶν παίδων ὦτα καὶ περὶ πατέρων, οὓς ἂν αὐτοῖς τις ἀποφήνῃ, καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων συγγενῶν; αὗται, ἔφη· γελοῖον γὰρ ἂν εἴη εἰ ἄνευ ἔργων οἰκεῖα ὀνόματα διὰ τῶν στομάτων μόνον φθέγγοιντο. πασῶν ἄρα πόλεων μάλιστα ἐν αὐτῇ συμφωνήσουσιν ἑνός τινος ἢ εὖ ἢ κακῶς πράττοντος ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν τὸ ῥῆμα, τὸ ὅτι τὸ ἐμὸν εὖ πράττει ἢ ὅτι τὸ ἐμὸν κακῶς. ἀληθέστατα αὖ, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
Will these voices, or others, from all the citizens resound immediately around the ears of the children, both concerning those whom someone points out to them as fathers, and concerning the other relatives?” “These,” he said; “for it would be ridiculous if they were to utter names of kinship with their mouths only, without the deeds.” “In this city, then, more than in any other, when any single person fares well or ill, they will speak in unison that word we just mentioned, namely, ‘mine is faring well’ or ‘mine is faring ill’?” “Most true indeed,” he said.
§5.464οὐκοῦν μετὰ τούτου τοῦ δόγματός τε καὶ ῥήματος ἔφαμεν συνακολουθεῖν τάς τε ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς λύπας κοινῇ; καὶ ὀρθῶς γε ἔφαμεν. οὐκοῦν μάλιστα τοῦ αὐτοῦ κοινωνήσουσιν ἡμῖν οἱ πολῖται, ὃ δὴ ἐμὸν ὀνομάσουσιν; τούτου δὲ κοινωνοῦντες οὕτω δὴ λύπης τε καὶ ἡδονῆς μάλιστα κοινωνίαν ἕξουσιν; πολύ γε. ἆρʼ οὖν τούτων αἰτία πρὸς τῇ ἄλλῃ καταστάσει ἡ τῶν γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων κοινωνία τοῖς φύλαξιν; πολὺ μὲν οὖν μάλιστα, ἔφη.
“Did we not say, then, that along with this conviction and this word, pleasures and pains follow in common?” “And we said so correctly.” “Will not, then, our citizens especially share in the same thing, which they will indeed call ‘mine’?” “And sharing in this, will they not in this way especially have a community of pain and pleasure?” “Very much so.” “Is, then, the cause of these things, in addition to the rest of the constitution, the community of wives and children among the guardians?” “By far the most indeed,” he said.
ἀλλὰ μὴν μέγιστόν γε πόλει αὐτὸ ὡμολογήσαμεν ἀγαθόν, ἀπεικάζοντες εὖ οἰκουμένην πόλιν σώματι πρὸς μέρος αὑτοῦ λύπης τε πέρι καὶ ἡδονῆς ὡς ἔχει. καὶ ὀρθῶς γʼ, ἔφη, ὡμολογήσαμεν. τοῦ μεγίστου ἄρα ἀγαθοῦ τῇ πόλει αἰτία ἡμῖν πέφανται ἡ κοινωνία τοῖς ἐπικούροις τῶν τε παίδων καὶ τῶν γυναικῶν. καὶ μάλʼ, ἔφη. καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ τοῖς πρόσθεν γε ὁμολογοῦμεν· ἔφαμεν γάρ που οὔτε οἰκίας τούτοις ἰδίας δεῖν εἶναι οὔτε γῆν οὔτε τι κτῆμα, ἀλλὰ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων τροφὴν λαμβάνοντας, μισθὸν τῆς φυλακῆς, κοινῇ πάντας ἀναλίσκειν, εἰ μέλλοιεν ὄντως φύλακες εἶναι. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχ, ὅπερ λέγω, τά τε πρόσθεν εἰρημένα καὶ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα ἔτι μᾶλλον ἀπεργάζεται αὐτοὺς ἀληθινοὺς φύλακας, καὶ ποιεῖ μὴ διασπᾶν τὴν πόλιν τὸ ἐμὸν ὀνομάζοντας μὴ τὸ αὐτὸ ἀλλʼ ἄλλον ἄλλο, τὸν μὲν εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ οἰκίαν ἕλκοντα ὅτι ἂν δύνηται χωρὶς τῶν ἄλλων κτήσασθαι, τὸν δὲ εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἑτέραν οὖσαν, καὶ γυναῖκά τε καὶ παῖδας ἑτέρους, ἡδονάς τε καὶ ἀλγηδόνας ἐμποιοῦντας ἰδίων ὄντων ἰδίας, ἀλλʼ ἑνὶ δόγματι τοῦ οἰκείου πέρι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ τείνοντας πάντας εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν ὁμοπαθεῖς λύπης τε καὶ ἡδονῆς εἶναι; κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
“And yet, we agreed that this is the greatest good for a city, likening a well-governed city to a body in respect of how it stands toward a part of itself regarding pain and pleasure.” “And we agreed correctly,” he said. “The community of children and wives among the helpers, then, has appeared to us to be the cause of the greatest good for the city.” “And very much so,” he said. “And surely we also agree with what was said before; for we said somewhere that they must have neither private houses nor land nor any possession, but receiving their sustenance from the others as wages for their guardianship, they must spend it all in common, if they are to be truly guardians.” “Correct,” he said. “Does not, then, as I say, both what was said before and what is being said now make them still more true guardians, and prevent them from tearing the city apart by not calling the same thing ‘mine’ but each a different thing, one dragging into his own house whatever he can acquire apart from the others, and another into his own house which is different, with a different wife and different children, introducing private pleasures and pains because their possessions are private—but rather, by holding a single conviction concerning what is their own, all stretching toward the same goal, they are, as far as possible, affected similarly by pain and pleasure?” “Entirely so,” he said. “And what about this?
τί δέ; δίκαι τε καὶ ἐγκλήματα πρὸς ἀλλήλους οὐκ οἰχήσεται ἐξ αὐτῶν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν διὰ τὸ μηδὲν ἴδιον ἐκτῆσθαι πλὴν τὸ σῶμα, τὰ δʼ ἄλλα κοινά;
Will not lawsuits and accusations against one another be virtually gone from among them, because they possess nothing of their own except their body, while other things are common?
ὅθεν δὴ ὑπάρχει τούτοις ἀστασιάστοις εἶναι, ὅσα γε διὰ χρημάτων ἢ παίδων καὶ συγγενῶν κτῆσιν ἄνθρωποι στασιάζουσιν; πολλὴ ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, ἀπηλλάχθαι. καὶ μὴν οὐδὲ βιαίων γε οὐδʼ αἰκίας δίκαι δικαίως ἂν εἶεν ἐν αὐτοῖς· ἥλιξι μὲν γὰρ ἥλικας ἀμύνεσθαι καλὸν καὶ δίκαιόν που φήσομεν, ἀνάγκην σωμάτων ἐπιμελείᾳ τιθέντες. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
From which indeed it belongs to them to be free from faction, as many as indeed people engage in faction because of the possession of money or children and relatives?” “There is a great necessity,” he said, “that they be rid of them.” “And indeed, neither could lawsuits for violence or assault justly exist among them; for we shall say, I suppose, that it is honorable and just for those of the same age to defend themselves against their peers, imposing a necessity for the care of their bodies.” “Correct,” he said.