§5.461ἀμφοτέρων γοῦν, ἔφη, αὕτη ἀκμὴ σώματός τε καὶ φρονήσεως. οὐκοῦν ἐάντε πρεσβύτερος τούτων ἐάντε νεώτερος τῶν εἰς τὸ κοινὸν γεννήσεων ἅψηται, οὔτε ὅσιον οὔτε δίκαιον φήσομεν τὸ ἁμάρτημα, ὡς παῖδα φιτύοντος τῇ πόλει, ὅς, ἂν λάθῃ, γεννήσεται οὐχ ὑπὸ θυσιῶν οὐδʼ ὑπὸ εὐχῶν φύς, ἃς ἐφʼ ἑκάστοις τοῖς γάμοις εὔξονται καὶ ἱέρειαι καὶ ἱερεῖς καὶ σύμπασα ἡ πόλις ἐξ ἀγαθῶν ἀμείνους καὶ ἐξ ὠφελίμων ὠφελιμωτέρους ἀεὶ τοὺς ἐκγόνους γίγνεσθαι, ἀλλʼ ὑπὸ σκότου μετὰ δεινῆς ἀκρατείας γεγονώς. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη. ὁ αὐτὸς δέ γʼ, εἶπον, νόμος, ἐάν τις τῶν ἔτι γεννώντων μὴ συνέρξαντος ἄρχοντος ἅπτηται τῶν ἐν ἡλικίᾳ γυναικῶν· νόθον γὰρ καὶ ἀνέγγυον καὶ ἀνίερον φήσομεν αὐτὸν παῖδα τῇ πόλει καθιστάναι. ὀρθότατα, ἔφη. ὅταν δὲ δὴ οἶμαι αἵ τε γυναῖκες καὶ οἱ ἄνδρες τοῦ γεννᾶν ἐκβῶσι τὴν ἡλικίαν, ἀφήσομέν που ἐλευθέρους αὐτοὺς συγγίγνεσθαι ᾧ ἂν ἐθέλωσι, πλὴν θυγατρὶ καὶ μητρὶ καὶ ταῖς τῶν θυγατέρων παισὶ καὶ ταῖς ἄνω μητρός, καὶ γυναῖκας αὖ πλὴν ὑεῖ καὶ πατρὶ καὶ τοῖς τούτων εἰς τὸ κάτω καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ ἄνω, καὶ ταῦτά γʼ ἤδη πάντα διακελευσάμενοι προθυμεῖσθαι μάλιστα μὲν μηδʼ εἰς φῶς ἐκφέρειν κύημα μηδέ γʼ ἕν, ἐὰν γένηται, ἐὰν δέ τι βιάσηται, οὕτω τιθέναι, ὡς οὐκ οὔσης τροφῆς τῷ τοιούτῳ. καὶ ταῦτα μέν γʼ, ἔφη, μετρίως λέγεται·
“At any rate,” he said, “this is the prime of both body and mind.” “Therefore, if anyone older than these or younger than these should touch the generation for the common good, we shall say that the transgression is neither holy nor just, as of one who begets a child for the city, who, if it goes unnoticed, will be born not having sprung from sacrifices or prayers, which the priestesses and priests and the whole city pray at each marriage—that from the good, better, and from the useful, more useful offspring may always be born—but having been born under darkness with terrible incontinence.” “Right,” he said. “And the same law,” I said, “will hold if anyone of those who are still in the age of begetting should touch women of appropriate age without the ruler having coupled them; for we shall say that he is establishing a bastard, unwarranted, and unholy child for the city.” “Most rightly,” he said. “But indeed, I think, when both the women and the men pass the age of begetting, we shall leave them free to associate with whomever they wish, except a daughter and a mother and the children of daughters and those prior to the mother; and for women, in turn, except a son and a father and the descendants and ancestors of these; and having already directed them all to do this, striving as much as possible not even to bring any pregnancy to light, not even one, if it should occur; but if any should force its way, to dispose of it in such a way, as there being no nurture for such a child.” “This indeed,” he said, “is spoken moderately.
πατέρας δὲ καὶ θυγατέρας καὶ ἃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγες πῶς διαγνώσονται ἀλλήλων; οὐδαμῶς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ἀλλʼ ἀφʼ ἧς ἂν ἡμέρας τις αὐτῶν νυμφίος γένηται, μετʼ ἐκείνην δεκάτῳ μηνὶ καὶ ἑβδόμῳ δὴ ἃ ἂν γένηται ἔκγονα, ταῦτα πάντα προσερεῖ τὰ μὲν ἄρρενα ὑεῖς, τὰ δὲ θήλεα θυγατέρας, καὶ ἐκεῖνα ἐκεῖνον πατέρα, καὶ οὕτω δὴ τὰ τούτων ἔκγονα παίδων παῖδας, καὶ ἐκεῖνʼ αὖ ἐκείνους πάππους τε καὶ τηθάς, τὰ δʼ ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ χρόνῳ γεγονότα, ἐν ᾧ αἱ μητέρες καὶ οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν ἐγέννων, ἀδελφάς τε καὶ ἀδελφούς, ὥστε, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, ἀλλήλων μὴ ἅπτεσθαι.
But how will they distinguish fathers and daughters, and those you were just speaking of, from one another?” “In no way,” I said; “but from whatever day any of them becomes a bridegroom, in the tenth month after that, and indeed in the seventh, whatever offspring are born, all these he will address, the males as sons, and the females as daughters, and they will call him father; and likewise, the offspring of these children as children’s children, and they in turn will call them grandfathers and grandmothers; and those born in that time in which their mothers and fathers were begetting, as sisters and brothers, so that, as we were just saying, they do not touch one another.
ἀδελφοὺς δὲ καὶ ἀδελφὰς δώσει ὁ νόμος συνοικεῖν, ἐὰν ὁ κλῆρος ταύτῃ συμπίπτῃ καὶ ἡ Πυθία προσαναιρῇ. ὀρθότατα, ἦ δʼ ὅς. ἡ μὲν δὴ κοινωνία, ὦ Γλαύκων, αὕτη τε καὶ τοιαύτη γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων τοῖς φύλαξί σοι τῆς πόλεως· ὡς δὲ ἑπομένη τε τῇ ἄλλῃ πολιτείᾳ καὶ μακρῷ βελτίστη, δεῖ δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο βεβαιώσασθαι παρὰ τοῦ λόγου.
But the law will grant brothers and sisters to dwell together, if the lot falls out this way and the Pythia approves.” “Most rightly,” he said. “This indeed, Glaukon, is the community of women and children for the guardians of your city; and that it is both consistent with the rest of the constitution and by far the best, must indeed next be confirmed by the argument.
ἢ πῶς ποιῶμεν;
Or how shall we do?”