§5.457τοῦτο δὲ μουσική τε καὶ γυμναστικὴ παραγιγνόμεναι, ὡς ἡμεῖς διήλθομεν, ἀπεργάσονται; πῶς δʼ οὔ; οὐ μόνον ἄρα δυνατὸν ἀλλὰ καὶ ἄριστον πόλει νόμιμον ἐτίθεμεν. οὕτως. ἀποδυτέον δὴ ταῖς τῶν φυλάκων γυναιξίν, ἐπείπερ ἀρετὴν ἀντὶ ἱματίων ἀμφιέσονται, καὶ κοινωνητέον πολέμου τε καὶ τῆς ἄλλης φυλακῆς τῆς περὶ τὴν πόλιν, καὶ οὐκ ἄλλα πρακτέον· τούτων δʼ αὐτῶν τὰ ἐλαφρότερα ταῖς γυναιξὶν ἢ τοῖς ἀνδράσι δοτέον διὰ τὴν τοῦ γένους ἀσθένειαν.
And will music and gymnastics, being present in the way we described, accomplish this? “Of course.” “Then we were establishing a law that is not only possible but also best for the city.” “Just so.” “Therefore, the wives of the guardians must strip, since they will clothe themselves in virtue instead of clothes, and they must share in war and the rest of the guarding concerning the city, and do nothing else; but of these very duties, the lighter ones must be assigned to the women rather than the men because of the weakness of their class.
ὁ δὲ γελῶν ἀνὴρ ἐπὶ γυμναῖς γυναιξί, τοῦ βελτίστου ἕνεκα γυμναζομέναις,
"ἀτελῆ"
τοῦ γελοίου
"σοφίας δρέπων καρπόν"
, οὐδὲν οἶδεν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐφʼ ᾧ γελᾷ οὐδʼ ὅτι πράττει· κάλλιστα γὰρ δὴ τοῦτο καὶ λέγεται καὶ λελέξεται, ὅτι τὸ μὲν ὠφέλιμον καλόν, τὸ δὲ βλαβερὸν αἰσχρόν. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν. τοῦτο μὲν τοίνυν ἓν ὥσπερ κῦμα φῶμεν διαφεύγειν τοῦ γυναικείου πέρι νόμου λέγοντες, ὥστε μὴ παντάπασι κατακλυσθῆναι τιθέντας ὡς δεῖ κοινῇ πάντα ἐπιτηδεύειν τούς τε φύλακας ἡμῖν καὶ τὰς φυλακίδας, ἀλλά πῃ τὸν λόγον αὐτὸν αὑτῷ ὁμολογεῖσθαι ὡς δυνατά τε καὶ ὠφέλιμα λέγει; καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, οὐ σμικρὸν κῦμα διαφεύγεις. φήσεις γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὐ μέγα αὐτὸ εἶναι, ὅταν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ἴδῃς. λέγε δή, ἴδω, ἔφη. τούτῳ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἕπεται νόμος καὶ τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν τοῖς ἄλλοις, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, ὅδε. τίς; τὰς γυναῖκας ταύτας τῶν ἀνδρῶν τούτων πάντων πάσας εἶναι κοινάς, ἰδίᾳ δὲ μηδενὶ μηδεμίαν συνοικεῖν· καὶ τοὺς παῖδας αὖ κοινούς, καὶ μήτε γονέα ἔκγονον εἰδέναι τὸν αὑτοῦ μήτε παῖδα γονέα. πολύ, ἔφη, τοῦτο ἐκείνου μεῖζον πρὸς ἀπιστίαν καὶ τοῦ δυνατοῦ πέρι καὶ τοῦ ὠφελίμου. οὐκ οἶμαι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, περί γε τοῦ ὠφελίμου ἀμφισβητεῖσθαι ἄν, ὡς οὐ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν κοινὰς μὲν τὰς γυναῖκας εἶναι, κοινοὺς δὲ τοὺς παῖδας, εἴπερ οἷόν τε· ἀλλʼ οἶμαι περὶ τοῦ εἰ δυνατὸν ἢ μὴ πλείστην ἂν ἀμφισβήτησιν γενέσθαι. περὶ ἀμφοτέρων, ἦ δʼ ὅς, εὖ μάλʼ ἂν ἀμφισβητηθείη. λέγεις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λόγων σύστασιν· ἐγὼ δʼ ᾤμην ἔκ γε τοῦ ἑτέρου ἀποδράσεσθαι, εἴ σοι δόξειεν ὠφέλιμον εἶναι, λοιπὸν δὲ δή μοι ἔσεσθαι περὶ τοῦ δυνατοῦ καὶ μή. ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἔλαθες, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἀποδιδράσκων, ἀλλʼ ἀμφοτέρων πέρι δίδου λόγον. §5.458ὑφεκτέον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δίκην.
But the man who laughs at naked women, exercising for the sake of the best, reaping an ‘unripe fruit of wisdom’ from the ridiculous, knows nothing, as it seems, of what he laughs at or what he does; for indeed, this is and will be said most beautifully, that the beneficial is beautiful, and the harmful is ugly.” “Entirely so.” “Then shall we say that we are escaping this one wave, so to speak, in our legislation concerning women, so as not to be completely submerged when we lay down that our guardian men and women must practice everything in common, but that somehow our argument is consistent with itself in saying that what we say is both possible and beneficial?” “And indeed,” he said, “it is no small wave you are escaping.” “You will say,” I said, “that it is not a great one when you see the one after this.” “Speak then, let me see,” he said. “This law,” I said, “follows the preceding ones and the others, as I think, namely this.” “Which one?” “That these women are to be common to all these men in common, and that no woman is to live privately with any man; and again, that the children are to be common, and that neither parent is to know his own offspring, nor a child its parent.” “This,” he said, “is much greater than the other in terms of skepticism, both regarding its possibility and its benefit.” “I do not think,” I said, “that its benefit would be disputed, as if it were not the greatest good to have the women common and the children common, if indeed it were possible; but I think the greatest dispute would arise about whether it is possible or not.” “About both,” he said, “there would indeed be a very great dispute.” “You speak of a gathering of arguments,” I said; “I thought I would escape from one of them, if it seemed beneficial to you, and that it would remain for me to discuss only the possibility and the lack thereof.” “But you did not escape notice,” he said, “in trying to run away, so give an account of both.” “I must submit to justice,” I said. “However, grant me this much favor: allow me to keep holiday, just as those who are lazy in intellect are accustomed to feast themselves on their own thoughts when they travel alone.
τοσόνδε μέντοι χάρισαί μοι· ἔασόν με ἑορτάσαι, ὥσπερ οἱ ἀργοὶ τὴν διάνοιαν εἰώθασιν ἑστιᾶσθαι ὑφʼ ἑαυτῶν, ὅταν μόνοι πορεύωνται. καὶ γὰρ οἱ τοιοῦτοί που, πρὶν ἐξευρεῖν τίνα τρόπον ἔσται τι ὧν ἐπιθυμοῦσι, τοῦτο παρέντες, ἵνα μὴ κάμνωσι βουλευόμενοι περὶ τοῦ δυνατοῦ καὶ μή, θέντες ὡς ὑπάρχον εἶναι ὃ βούλονται, ἤδη τὰ λοιπὰ διατάττουσιν καὶ χαίρουσιν διεξιόντες οἷα δράσουσι γενομένου, ἀργὸν καὶ ἄλλως ψυχὴν ἔτι ἀργοτέραν ποιοῦντες.
For such people, indeed, before discovering in what way what they desire will come to be, let this go, so that they may not grow weary deliberating about the possible and the impossible; having assumed that what they want exists, they then arrange the rest and enjoy going through what they will do when it happens, making a soul that is otherwise idle still idler.
ἤδη οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς μαλθακίζομαι, καὶ ἐκεῖνα μὲν ἐπιθυμῶ ἀναβαλέσθαι καὶ ὕστερον ἐπισκέψασθαι, ᾗ δυνατά, νῦν δὲ ὡς δυνατῶν ὄντων θεὶς σκέψομαι, ἄν μοι παριῇς, πῶς διατάξουσιν αὐτὰ οἱ ἄρχοντες γιγνόμενα, καὶ ὅτι πάντων συμφορώτατʼ ἂν εἴη πραχθέντα τῇ τε πόλει καὶ τοῖς φύλαξιν.
So I myself am now growing soft, and I desire to postpone those matters and examine later how it is possible; but for now, assuming they are possible, I shall examine, if you permit me, how the rulers will arrange these things as they happen, and why this would be the most advantageous of all things practiced for the city and the guardians.
ταῦτα πειράσομαί σοι πρότερα συνδιασκοπεῖσθαι, ὕστερα δʼ ἐκεῖνα, εἴπερ παριεῖς. ἀλλὰ παρίημι, ἔφη, καὶ σκόπει. οἶμαι τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἴπερ ἔσονται οἱ ἄρχοντες ἄξιοι τούτου τοῦ ὀνόματος, οἵ τε τούτοις ἐπίκουροι κατὰ ταὐτά, τοὺς μὲν ἐθελήσειν ποιεῖν τὰ ἐπιταττόμενα, τοὺς δὲ ἐπιτάξειν, τὰ μὲν αὐτοὺς πειθομένους τοῖς νόμοις, τὰ δὲ καὶ μιμουμένους, ὅσα ἂν ἐκείνοις ἐπιτρέψωμεν. εἰκός, ἔφη. σὺ μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὁ νομοθέτης αὐτοῖς, ὥσπερ τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐξέλεξας, οὕτω καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας ἐκλέξας παραδώσεις καθʼ ὅσον οἷόν τε ὁμοφυεῖς· οἱ δέ, ἅτε οἰκίας τε καὶ συσσίτια κοινὰ ἔχοντες, ἰδίᾳ δὲ οὐδενὸς οὐδὲν τοιοῦτον κεκτημένου, ὁμοῦ δὴ ἔσονται, ὁμοῦ δὲ ἀναμεμειγμένων καὶ ἐν γυμνασίοις καὶ ἐν τῇ ἄλλῃ τροφῇ ὑπʼ ἀνάγκης οἶμαι τῆς ἐμφύτου ἄξονται πρὸς τὴν ἀλλήλων μεῖξιν.
I shall try to examine these things with you first, and those others later, if indeed you permit.” “I do permit,” he said, “so examine.” “I think then,” I said, “if indeed the rulers are to be worthy of this name, and their auxiliaries likewise, that the latter will be willing to do what is commanded, and the former will command, in some things obeying the laws themselves, and in others imitating them in whatever we entrust to them.” “Likely,” he said. “You, then, as their legislator, just as you chose the men, so you will choose the women and hand them over, making them of like nature as far as possible; and they, having common houses and common messes, and since no one possesses anything of the sort privately, they will indeed be together; and being mixed together in gymnastics and the rest of their nurture, they will, I think, be led by innate necessity to mate with one another.
ἢ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖά σοι δοκῶ λέγειν; οὐ γεωμετρικαῖς γε, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἀλλʼ ἐρωτικαῖς ἀνάγκαις, αἳ κινδυνεύουσιν ἐκείνων δριμύτεραι εἶναι πρὸς τὸ πείθειν τε καὶ ἕλκειν τὸν πολὺν λεών. καὶ μάλα, εἶπον. ἀλλὰ μετὰ δὴ ταῦτα, ὦ Γλαύκων, ἀτάκτως μὲν μείγνυσθαι ἀλλήλοις ἢ ἄλλο ὁτιοῦν ποιεῖν οὔτε ὅσιον ἐν εὐδαιμόνων πόλει οὔτʼ ἐάσουσιν οἱ ἄρχοντες. οὐ γὰρ δίκαιον, ἔφη. δῆλον δὴ ὅτι γάμους τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ποιήσομεν ἱεροὺς εἰς δύναμιν ὅτι μάλιστα· εἶεν δʼ ἂν ἱεροὶ οἱ ὠφελιμώτατοι.
Or do I not seem to speak of necessary things?” “Not by geometrical necessity,” he said, “but by erotic necessities, which risk being sharper than those others in persuading and drawing the multitude.” “Very much so,” I said. “But after this, Glaukon, to mate with one another in a disorderly fashion, or to do anything else, is not holy in a happy city, nor will the rulers permit it.” “For it is not right,” he said. “It is clear indeed that we shall next make marriages holy to the highest degree possible; and the most beneficial marriages would be the holy ones.”