§5.455οὐκοῦν μετὰ τοῦτο κελεύομεν τὸν τὰ ἐναντία λέγοντα τοῦτο αὐτὸ διδάσκειν ἡμᾶς, πρὸς τίνα τέχνην ἢ τί ἐπιτήδευμα τῶν περὶ πόλεως κατασκευὴν οὐχ ἡ αὐτὴ ἀλλὰ ἑτέρα φύσις γυναικός τε καὶ ἀνδρός;
Therefore, after this, do we not bid the one who says the opposite to teach us this very thing: in respect to what art or what pursuit among those concerning the constitution of the city is the nature of a woman and of a man not the same but different?
δίκαιον γοῦν.
At least that is just.
τάχα τοίνυν ἄν, ὅπερ σὺ ὀλίγον πρότερον ἔλεγες, εἴποι ἂν καὶ ἄλλος, ὅτι ἐν μὲν τῷ παραχρῆμα ἱκανῶς εἰπεῖν οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ἐπισκεψαμένῳ δὲ οὐδὲν χαλεπόν.
Perhaps then, indeed, as you were saying a little while ago, someone else also might say that on the spur of the moment it is not easy to speak adequately, but to one who has examined it, it is not at all difficult.
εἴποι γὰρ ἄν.
For he would say so.
βούλει οὖν δεώμεθα τοῦ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀντιλέγοντος ἀκολουθῆσαι ἡμῖν, ἐάν πως ἡμεῖς ἐκείνῳ ἐνδειξώμεθα ὅτι οὐδέν ἐστιν ἐπιτήδευμα ἴδιον γυναικὶ πρὸς διοίκησιν πόλεως;
Do you wish, then, that we request the one who contradicts such things to follow us, to see if we can somehow demonstrate to him that there is no pursuit peculiar to a woman with respect to the administration of a city?
πάνυ γε. ἴθι δή, φήσομεν πρὸς αὐτόν, ἀποκρίνου·
Certainly. “Come then,” we shall say to him, “answer.
ἆρα οὕτως ἔλεγες τὸν μὲν εὐφυῆ πρός τι εἶναι, τὸν δὲ ἀφυῆ, ἐν ᾧ ὁ μὲν ῥᾳδίως τι μανθάνοι, ὁ δὲ χαλεπῶς;
Was it in this way that you said one is naturally gifted for something, and another ungifted: in that the one learns something easily, but the other with difficulty?
καὶ ὁ μὲν ἀπὸ βραχείας μαθήσεως ἐπὶ πολὺ εὑρετικὸς εἴη οὗ ἔμαθεν, ὁ δὲ πολλῆς μαθήσεως τυχὼν καὶ μελέτης μηδʼ ἃ ἔμαθε σῴζοιτο;
And the one, from brief learning, is highly inventive of what he learned, but the other, having met with much learning and practice, does not even preserve what he learned?
καὶ τῷ μὲν τὰ τοῦ σώματος ἱκανῶς ὑπηρετοῖ τῇ διανοίᾳ, τῷ δὲ ἐναντιοῖτο;
And to the one, the things of the body adequately serve the intellect, but to the other, they are contrary?
ἆρʼ ἄλλα ἄττα ἐστὶν ἢ ταῦτα, οἷς τὸν εὐφυῆ πρὸς ἕκαστα καὶ τὸν μὴ ὡρίζου; οὐδείς, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἄλλα φήσει. οἶσθά τι οὖν ὑπὸ ἀνθρώπων μελετώμενον, ἐν ᾧ οὐ πάντα ταῦτα τὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν γένος διαφερόντως ἔχει ἢ τὸ τῶν γυναικῶν;
Are there any other things than these by which you defined the one naturally gifted for each thing and the one who is not?” “No one,” he will say, “will say other things.” “Do you know, then, of anything practiced by human beings in which the class of men does not excel that of women in all these respects?
ἢ μακρολογῶμεν τήν τε ὑφαντικὴν λέγοντες καὶ τὴν τῶν ποπάνων τε καὶ ἑψημάτων θεραπείαν, ἐν οἷς δή τι δοκεῖ τὸ γυναικεῖον γένος εἶναι, οὗ καὶ καταγελαστότατόν ἐστι πάντων ἡττώμενον; ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις, ὅτι πολὺ κρατεῖται ἐν ἅπασιν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν τὸ γένος τοῦ γένους.
Or must we speak at length, mentioning weaving and the care of pancakes and boiled meats, in which indeed the female gender seems to be something, and where it is most ridiculous of all when defeated?” “What you say is true,” he said, “namely that the one class is far surpassed in almost all things by the other class.
γυναῖκες μέντοι πολλαὶ πολλῶν ἀνδρῶν βελτίους εἰς πολλά· τὸ δὲ ὅλον ἔχει ὡς σὺ λέγεις. οὐδὲν ἄρα ἐστίν, ὦ φίλε, ἐπιτήδευμα τῶν πόλιν διοικούντων γυναικὸς διότι γυνή, οὐδʼ ἀνδρὸς διότι ἀνήρ, ἀλλʼ ὁμοίως διεσπαρμέναι αἱ φύσεις ἐν ἀμφοῖν τοῖν ζῴοιν, καὶ πάντων μὲν μετέχει γυνὴ ἐπιτηδευμάτων κατὰ φύσιν, πάντων δὲ ἀνήρ, ἐπὶ πᾶσι δὲ ἀσθενέστερον γυνὴ ἀνδρός. πάνυ γε. ἦ οὖν ἀνδράσι πάντα προστάξομεν, γυναικὶ δʼ οὐδέν; καὶ πῶς; ἀλλʼ ἔστι γὰρ οἶμαι, ὡς φήσομεν, καὶ γυνὴ ἰατρική, ἡ δʼ οὔ, καὶ μουσική, ἡ δʼ ἄμουσος φύσει. τί μήν; §5.456γυμναστικὴ δʼ ἄρα οὔ, οὐδὲ πολεμική, ἡ δὲ ἀπόλεμος καὶ οὐ φιλογυμναστική; οἶμαι ἔγωγε. τί δέ; φιλόσοφός τε καὶ μισόσοφος; καὶ θυμοειδής, ἡ δʼ ἄθυμός ἐστι; καὶ ταῦτα.
To be sure, many women are better than many men in many things; but on the whole, it is as you say.” “There is, therefore, my friend, no pursuit of those who administer the city that belongs to a woman because she is a woman, nor to a man because he is a man; but the natures are scattered similarly in both these living beings, and a woman shares in all pursuits according to nature, and a man in all, yet in all of them a woman is weaker than a man.” “Certainly.” “Shall we, then, assign everything to men, and nothing to a woman?” “How could we?” “But indeed, I think, as we shall say, there is also a woman who is a doctor, and another who is not, and one musical, and another unmusical by nature.” “Of course.” “And is there, then, one fit for gymnastics, and another not, and one warlike, and another unwarlike and not loving gymnastics?” “I think so.” “What about a lover of wisdom and a hater of wisdom?
ἔστιν ἄρα καὶ φυλακικὴ γυνή, ἡ δʼ οὔ. ἢ οὐ τοιαύτην καὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν φυλακικῶν φύσιν ἐξελεξάμεθα; τοιαύτην μὲν οὖν.
And one high-spirited, and another dispirited?” “These too.” “There is, therefore, also a woman fit for guarding, and another who is not.
καὶ γυναικὸς ἄρα καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις εἰς φυλακὴν πόλεως, πλὴν ὅσα ἀσθενεστέρα, ἡ δὲ ἰσχυροτέρα ἐστίν. φαίνεται. καὶ γυναῖκες ἄρα αἱ τοιαῦται τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνδράσιν ἐκλεκτέαι συνοικεῖν τε καὶ συμφυλάττειν, ἐπείπερ εἰσὶν ἱκαναὶ καὶ συγγενεῖς αὐτοῖς τὴν φύσιν. πάνυ γε. τὰ δʼ ἐπιτηδεύματα οὐ τὰ αὐτὰ ἀποδοτέα ταῖς αὐταῖς φύσεσιν; τὰ αὐτά. ἥκομεν ἄρα εἰς τὰ πρότερα περιφερόμενοι, καὶ ὁμολογοῦμεν μὴ παρὰ φύσιν εἶναι ταῖς τῶν φυλάκων γυναιξὶ μουσικήν τε καὶ γυμναστικὴν ἀποδιδόναι. παντάπασιν μὲν οὖν. οὐκ ἄρα ἀδύνατά γε οὐδὲ εὐχαῖς ὅμοια ἐνομοθετοῦμεν, ἐπείπερ κατὰ φύσιν ἐτίθεμεν τὸν νόμον· ἀλλὰ τὰ νῦν παρὰ ταῦτα γιγνόμενα παρὰ φύσιν μᾶλλον, ὡς ἔοικε, γίγνεται. ἔοικεν. οὐκοῦν ἡ ἐπίσκεψις ἡμῖν ἦν εἰ δυνατά γε καὶ βέλτιστα λέγοιμεν; ἦν γάρ. καὶ ὅτι μὲν δὴ δυνατά, διωμολόγηται; ναί. ὅτι δὲ δὴ βέλτιστα, τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο δεῖ διομολογηθῆναι; δῆλον. οὐκοῦν πρός γε τὸ φυλακικὴν γυναῖκα γενέσθαι, οὐκ ἄλλη μὲν ἡμῖν ἄνδρας ποιήσει παιδεία, ἄλλη δὲ γυναῖκας, ἄλλως τε καὶ τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν παραλαβοῦσα; οὐκ ἄλλη. πῶς οὖν ἔχεις δόξης τοῦ τοιοῦδε πέρι; τίνος δή; τοῦ ὑπολαμβάνειν παρὰ σεαυτῷ τὸν μὲν ἀμείνω ἄνδρα, τὸν δὲ χείρω· ἢ πάντας ὁμοίους ἡγῇ; οὐδαμῶς. ἐν οὖν τῇ πόλει ἣν ᾠκίζομεν, πότερον οἴει ἡμῖν ἀμείνους ἄνδρας ἐξειργάσθαι τοὺς φύλακας, τυχόντας ἧς διήλθομεν παιδείας, ἢ τοὺς σκυτοτόμους, τῇ σκυτικῇ παιδευθέντας; γελοῖον, ἔφη, ἐρωτᾷς. μανθάνω, ἔφην. τί δέ;
Or was it not such a nature that we chose also for the guardian men?” “It was indeed.” “Therefore, the nature of both woman and man is the same for the guarding of the city, except in so far as one is weaker and the other stronger.” “It appears so.” “And therefore such women must be chosen for such men to live with them and to guard with them, since they are capable and akin to them in nature.” “Certainly.” “And must not the same pursuits be assigned to the same natures?” “The same.” “We have come, then, circling back to our former points, and we agree that it is not against nature to assign music and gymnastics to the wives of the guardians.” “Entirely so indeed.” “We were not, therefore, legislating things impossible or resembling prayers, since we established the law according to nature; but rather, what happens nowadays contrary to these things happens more against nature, as it seems.” “It seems so.” “Now, was not our examination whether we were saying things possible and best?” “It was.” “And that they are indeed possible, has been agreed?” “Yes.” “And that they are indeed best, must be agreed after this?” “Clearly.” “Therefore, at least with respect to a woman becoming fit for guarding, one education will not make men for us, and another women, especially since it receives the same nature?” “No indeed.” “How, then, do you stand in opinion regarding such a point?” “What point indeed?” “That of believing in your own mind that one man is better, and another worse; or do you think all are alike?” “By no means.” “In the city we were founding, then, do you think our guardians have been made better men, having received the education we described, or the shoemakers, educated in shoemaking?” “You are asking a ridiculous question,” he said. “I understand,” I said. “But what?
τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν οὐχ οὗτοι ἄριστοι; πολύ γε.
Are they not the best of all the other citizens?” “By far.” “What about the women?
τί δέ; αἱ γυναῖκες τῶν γυναικῶν οὐχ αὗται ἔσονται βέλτισται; καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, πολύ. ἔστι δέ τι πόλει ἄμεινον ἢ γυναῖκάς τε καὶ ἄνδρας ὡς ἀρίστους ἐγγίγνεσθαι; οὐκ ἔστιν.
Will not these be the best of the women?” “This too,” he said, “by far.” “Is there anything better for a city than that the best possible women and men are produced in it?” “There is not.”