§5.453ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ πρῶτον μὲν τοῦτο περὶ αὐτῶν ἀνομολογητέον, εἰ δυνατὰ ἢ οὔ, καὶ δοτέον ἀμφισβήτησιν εἴτε τις φιλοπαίσμων εἴτε σπουδαστικὸς ἐθέλει ἀμφισβητῆσαι, πότερον δυνατὴ φύσις ἡ ἀνθρωπίνη ἡ θήλεια τῇ τοῦ ἄρρενος γένους κοινωνῆσαι εἰς ἅπαντα τὰ ἔργα ἢ οὐδʼ εἰς ἕν, ἢ εἰς τὰ μὲν οἵα τε, εἰς δὲ τὰ οὔ, καὶ τοῦτο δὴ τὸ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ποτέρων ἐστίν;
"Must we not, then, first agree on this very point about them, whether these things are possible or not, and grant an opportunity for dispute to anyone, whether they are playful or serious, who wishes to dispute: whether the human female nature is capable of sharing in all the works of the male gender, or not in even one, or capable in some but not in others, and to which of these two classes this matter of war belongs?
ἆρʼ οὐχ οὕτως ἂν κάλλιστά τις ἀρχόμενος ὡς τὸ εἰκὸς καὶ κάλλιστα τελευτήσειεν; πολύ γε, ἔφη.
Would not someone, starting in this way, make the best beginning and, as is likely, the best end?" "By far," he said.
βούλει οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἡμεῖς πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ τῶν ἄλλων ἀμφισβητήσωμεν, ἵνα μὴ ἔρημα τὰ τοῦ ἑτέρου λόγου πολιορκῆται; οὐδέν, ἔφη, κωλύει. λέγωμεν δὴ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ὅτι
ὦ Σώκρατές τε καὶ Γλαύκων, οὐδὲν δεῖ ὑμῖν ἄλλους ἀμφισβητεῖν· αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἐν ἀρχῇ τῆς κατοικίσεως, ἣν ᾠκίζετε πόλιν, ὡμολογεῖτε δεῖν κατὰ φύσιν ἕκαστον ἕνα ἓν τὸ αὑτοῦ πράττειν. ὡμολογήσαμεν οἶμαι· πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ἔστιν οὖν ὅπως οὐ πάμπολυ διαφέρει γυνὴ ἀνδρὸς τὴν φύσιν; πῶς δʼ οὐ διαφέρει; οὐκοῦν ἄλλο καὶ ἔργον ἑκατέρῳ προσήκει προστάττειν
τὸ κατὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ φύσιν; τί μήν; πῶς οὖν οὐχ ἁμαρτάνετε νυνὶ καὶ τἀναντία ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς λέγετε φάσκοντες αὖ τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας δεῖν τὰ αὐτὰ πράττειν, πλεῖστον κεχωρισμένην φύσιν ἔχοντας; ἕξεις τι, ὦ θαυμάσιε, πρὸς ταῦτʼ ἀπολογεῖσθαι; ὡς μὲν ἐξαίφνης, ἔφη, οὐ πάνυ ῥᾴδιον· ἀλλὰ σοῦ δεήσομαί τε καὶ δέομαι καὶ τὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν λόγον, ὅστις ποτʼ ἐστίν, ἑρμηνεῦσαι. ταῦτʼ ἐστίν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ τοιαῦτα, ἃ ἐγὼ πάλαι προορῶν ἐφοβούμην τε καὶ ὤκνουν ἅπτεσθαι τοῦ νόμου τοῦ περὶ τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ παίδων κτῆσιν καὶ τροφήν. οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν. οὐ γάρ, εἶπον.
"Do you wish, then," I said, "that we dispute against ourselves on behalf of the others, so that the position of the other argument may not be besieged while being deserted?" "Nothing," he said, "prevents it." "Let us say, then, on their behalf: 'O Socrates and Glaucon, there is no need for others to dispute with you; for you yourselves, at the beginning of the settlement of the city you were founding, agreed that each one must perform his own single business according to nature.' 'We agreed, I think; for how could we not?' 'Is there, then, any way that a woman does not differ immensely from a man in her nature?' 'How could she not differ?' 'Therefore, is it not fitting to assign a different work to each, that which is according to their own nature?' 'Of course.' 'How, then, are you not now erring and saying things contrary to yourselves, when you assert again that the men and the women must do the same things, though having natures that are most widely separated?' 'Will you have anything, my wonderful friend, to say in defense against these things?' 'On the spur of the moment,' he said, "it is not altogether easy; but I shall request and do request of you to interpret also the argument on our behalf, whatever it may be." "These are the things, Glaucon," I said, "and many other such things, which I, long foreseeing, was both afraid of and hesitant to touch upon—the law concerning the possession and rearing of the women and children." "By Zeus," he said, "it does not seem to be an easy thing." "No indeed," I said.
ἀλλὰ δὴ ὧδʼ ἔχει· ἄντε τις εἰς κολυμβήθραν μικρὰν ἐμπέσῃ ἄντε εἰς τὸ μέγιστον πέλαγος μέσον, ὅμως γε νεῖ οὐδὲν ἧττον. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἡμῖν νευστέον καὶ πειρατέον σῴζεσθαι ἐκ τοῦ λόγου, ἤτοι δελφῖνά τινα ἐλπίζοντας ἡμᾶς ὑπολαβεῖν ἂν ἤ τινα ἄλλην ἄπορον σωτηρίαν. ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
"But the case is thus: whether someone falls into a small swimming pool or into the middle of the greatest ocean, nevertheless they must swim no less." "Certainly." "Therefore, we too must swim and try to save ourselves from the argument, hoping either that some dolphin might take us up or that some other impossible salvation might appear." "It seems so," he said.
φέρε δή, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐάν πῃ εὕρωμεν τὴν ἔξοδον.
"Come then," I said, "let us see if we can find the way out.
ὁμολογοῦμεν γὰρ δὴ ἄλλην φύσιν ἄλλο δεῖν ἐπιτηδεύειν, γυναικὸς δὲ καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἄλλην εἶναι· τὰς δὲ ἄλλας φύσεις τὰ αὐτά φαμεν νῦν δεῖν ἐπιτηδεῦσαι.
For we agree indeed that a different nature must practice a different thing, and that the nature of a woman and of a man is different; and yet we now say that these different natures must practice the same things.
ταῦτα ἡμῶν κατηγορεῖται; κομιδῇ γε. §5.454ἦ γενναία, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων, ἡ δύναμις τῆς ἀντιλογικῆς τέχνης. τί δή; ὅτι, εἶπον, δοκοῦσί μοι εἰς αὐτὴν καὶ ἄκοντες πολλοὶ ἐμπίπτειν καὶ οἴεσθαι οὐκ ἐρίζειν ἀλλὰ διαλέγεσθαι, διὰ τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι κατʼ εἴδη διαιρούμενοι τὸ λεγόμενον ἐπισκοπεῖν, ἀλλὰ κατʼ αὐτὸ τὸ ὄνομα διώκειν τοῦ λεχθέντος τὴν ἐναντίωσιν, ἔριδι, οὐ διαλέκτῳ πρὸς ἀλλήλους χρώμενοι. ἔστι γὰρ δή, ἔφη, περὶ πολλοὺς τοῦτο τὸ πάθος· ἀλλὰ μῶν καὶ πρὸς ἡμᾶς τοῦτο τείνει ἐν τῷ παρόντι; παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· κινδυνεύομεν γοῦν ἄκοντες ἀντιλογίας ἅπτεσθαι. πῶς; τὸ μὴ τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν ὅτι οὐ τῶν αὐτῶν δεῖ ἐπιτηδευμάτων τυγχάνειν πάνυ ἀνδρείως τε καὶ ἐριστικῶς κατὰ τὸ ὄνομα διώκομεν, ἐπεσκεψάμεθα δὲ οὐδʼ ὁπῃοῦν τί εἶδος τὸ τῆς ἑτέρας τε καὶ τῆς αὐτῆς φύσεως καὶ πρὸς τί τεῖνον ὡριζόμεθα τότε, ὅτε τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα ἄλλῃ φύσει ἄλλα, τῇ δὲ αὐτῇ τὰ αὐτὰ ἀπεδίδομεν. οὐ γὰρ οὖν, ἔφη, ἐπεσκεψάμεθα. τοιγάρτοι, εἶπον, ἔξεστιν ἡμῖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀνερωτᾶν ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς εἰ ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις φαλακρῶν καὶ κομητῶν καὶ οὐχ ἡ ἐναντία, καὶ ἐπειδὰν ὁμολογῶμεν ἐναντίαν εἶναι, ἐὰν φαλακροὶ σκυτοτομῶσιν, μὴ ἐᾶν κομήτας, ἐὰν δʼ αὖ κομῆται, μὴ τοὺς ἑτέρους. γελοῖον μεντἂν εἴη, ἔφη.
Is this what is charged against us?" "Entirely so." "Noble indeed, Glaucon," I said, "is the power of the art of contradiction." "Why so?" "Because," I said, "many seem to me to fall into it even involuntarily, and to think they are not wrangling but conversing, because they are unable to examine what is said by dividing it according to forms, but pursue the contradiction of what was spoken according to the mere name itself, using strife against one another, not dialectic." "Indeed," he said, "this passion is common to many; but does it also extend to us at present?" "Entirely so indeed," I said; "at any rate we run the risk of touching upon contradiction involuntarily." "How?" "We pursue very courageously and contentiously, according to the name, the principle that a nature that is not the same must not obtain the same pursuits; but we did not examine in any way at all what kind of form of the different and the same nature we were defining, and pointing to what, when we assigned different pursuits to a different nature and the same to the same." "No indeed," he said, "we did not examine it." "Therefore," I said, "it is open to us, as it seems, to ask ourselves whether the nature of bald men and long-haired men is the same and not the opposite, and once we agree that it is opposite, if bald men make shoes, not to allow long-haired men, or if again long-haired men do so, not the others." "That would be ridiculous indeed," he said.
ἆρα κατʼ ἄλλο τι, εἶπον ἐγώ, γελοῖον, ἢ ὅτι τότε οὐ πάντως τὴν αὐτὴν καὶ τὴν ἑτέραν φύσιν ἐτιθέμεθα, ἀλλʼ ἐκεῖνο τὸ εἶδος τῆς ἀλλοιώσεώς τε καὶ ὁμοιώσεως μόνον ἐφυλάττομεν τὸ πρὸς αὐτὰ τεῖνον τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα;
"Would it be ridiculous for any other reason," I said, "than because we did not then establish the same and different nature in every way, but were guarding only that single form of difference and similarity which pointed to the pursuits themselves?
οἷον ἰατρικὸν μὲν καὶ ἰατρικὴν τὴν ψυχὴν τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν ἔχειν ἐλέγομεν·
For example, we said that a man with a medical mind and a woman with a medical mind have the same nature.
ἢ οὐκ οἴει; ἔγωγε. ἰατρικὸν δέ γε καὶ τεκτονικὸν ἄλλην; πάντως που. οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ τὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ τὸ τῶν γυναικῶν γένος, ἐὰν μὲν πρὸς τέχνην τινὰ ἢ ἄλλο ἐπιτήδευμα διαφέρον φαίνηται, τοῦτο δὴ φήσομεν ἑκατέρῳ δεῖν ἀποδιδόναι· ἐὰν δʼ αὐτῷ τούτῳ φαίνηται διαφέρειν, τῷ τὸ μὲν θῆλυ τίκτειν, τὸ δὲ ἄρρεν ὀχεύειν, οὐδέν τί πω φήσομεν μᾶλλον ἀποδεδεῖχθαι ὡς πρὸς ὃ ἡμεῖς λέγομεν διαφέρει γυνὴ ἀνδρός, ἀλλʼ ἔτι οἰησόμεθα δεῖν τὰ αὐτὰ ἐπιτηδεύειν τούς τε φύλακας ἡμῖν καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας αὐτῶν. καὶ ὀρθῶς γʼ, ἔφη.
Or do you not think so?" "I do." "But a medical man and a carpenter have a different nature?" "Surely." "Therefore," I said, "also as for the male and female gender, if it appears to differ with respect to some art or other pursuit, we shall say that this must be assigned to each; but if it appears to differ in this very thing alone, namely, that the female bears and the male mounts, we shall say that it has not yet been demonstrated at all that a woman differs from a man with respect to what we are speaking of, but we shall still think that both our guardians and their wives must practice the same things." "And correctly so," he said.",