§5.449ἀγαθὴν μὲν τοίνυν τὴν τοιαύτην πόλιν τε καὶ πολιτείαν καὶ ὀρθὴν καλῶ, καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν τοιοῦτον· κακὰς δὲ τὰς ἄλλας καὶ ἡμαρτημένας, εἴπερ αὕτη ὀρθή, περί τε πόλεων διοικήσεις καὶ περὶ ἰδιωτῶν ψυχῆς τρόπου κατασκευήν, ἐν τέτταρσι πονηρίας εἴδεσιν οὔσας.
So, on the one hand, I call such a city and constitution good and correct, and also such a man; but the others bad and mistaken, if indeed this one is correct, both concerning the administrations of cities and the constitution of the character of the soul of private individuals, being in four forms of vice.
ποίας δὴ ταύτας; ἔφη.
"Which ones indeed are these?" he said.
καὶ ἐγὼ μὲν ᾖα τὰς ἐφεξῆς ἐρῶν, ὥς μοι ἐφαίνοντο ἕκασται ἐξ ἀλλήλων μεταβαίνειν· ὁ δὲ Πολέμαρχος— σμικρὸν γὰρ ἀπωτέρω τοῦ Ἀδειμάντου καθῆστο—ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λαβόμενος τοῦ ἱματίου ἄνωθεν αὐτοῦ παρὰ τὸν ὦμον, ἐκεῖνόν τε προσηγάγετο καὶ προτείνας ἑαυτὸν ἔλεγεν ἄττα προσκεκυφώς, ὧν ἄλλο μὲν οὐδὲν κατηκούσαμεν, τόδε δέ· Ἀφήσομεν οὖν, ἔφη, ἢ τί δράσομεν; ἥκιστά γε, ἔφη ὁ Ἀδείμαντος μέγα ἤδη λέγων.
And I was going to state them in order, how they seemed to me to transition each from one another; but Polemarchus—for he sat a little further away than Adeimantus—having stretched out his hand and taken hold of his cloak from above near his shoulder, drew him close, and leaning forward himself, spoke certain things, of which we heard nothing else but this: "Shall we then let him go, or what shall we do?" "Not at all indeed," said Adeimantus, now speaking aloud.
καὶ ἐγώ, τί μάλιστα, ἔφην, ὑμεῖς οὐκ ἀφίετε; σέ, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
And I said, "Whom in particular are you not letting go?" "You," he said.
ὅτι, ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί μάλιστα;
"Why indeed?" I said.
ἀπορρᾳθυμεῖν ἡμῖν δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ εἶδος ὅλον οὐ τὸ ἐλάχιστον ἐκκλέπτειν τοῦ λόγου ἵνα μὴ διέλθῃς, καὶ λήσειν οἰηθῆναι εἰπὼν αὐτὸ φαύλως, ὡς ἄρα περὶ γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων παντὶ δῆλον ὅτι κοινὰ τὰ φίλων ἔσται. οὐκοῦν ὀρθῶς, ἔφην, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε;
"Because," he said, "you seem to us to be playing the slacker and to be stealing away a whole form, and that not the least, of the argument so that you do not have to discuss it, and to think you would escape notice by saying it casually, that as for women and children it is indeed clear to everyone that 'friends have all things in common.'" "Was it not then correct, Adeimantus?" I said.
ναί, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Yes," he said.
ἀλλὰ τὸ ὀρθῶς τοῦτο, ὥσπερ τἆλλα, λόγου δεῖται τίς ὁ τρόπος τῆς κοινωνίας· πολλοὶ γὰρ ἂν γένοιντο.
"But this 'correctly', like the rest, needs an explanation of what the manner of this community is; for there could be many.
μὴ οὖν παρῇς ὅντινα σὺ λέγεις· ὡς ἡμεῖς πάλαι περιμένομεν οἰόμενοί σέ που μνησθήσεσθαι παιδοποιίας τε πέρι, πῶς παιδοποιήσονται, καὶ γενομένους πῶς θρέψουσιν, καὶ ὅλην ταύτην ἣν λέγεις κοινωνίαν γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων· μέγα γάρ τι οἰόμεθα φέρειν καὶ ὅλον εἰς πολιτείαν ὀρθῶς ἢ μὴ ὀρθῶς γιγνόμενον. §5.450νῦν οὖν, ἐπειδὴ ἄλλης ἐπιλαμβάνῃ πολιτείας πρὶν ταῦτα ἱκανῶς διελέσθαι, δέδοκται ἡμῖν τοῦτο ὃ σὺ ἤκουσας, τὸ σὲ μὴ μεθιέναι πρὶν ἂν ταῦτα πάντα ὥσπερ τἆλλα διέλθῃς. καὶ ἐμὲ τοίνυν, ὁ Γλαύκων ἔφη, κοινωνὸν τῆς ψήφου ταύτης τίθετε. ἀμέλει, ἔφη ὁ Θρασύμαχος, πᾶσι ταῦτα δεδογμένα ἡμῖν νόμιζε, ὦ Σώκρατες. οἷον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰργάσασθε ἐπιλαβόμενοί μου.
Do not therefore pass over whichever one you mean; since we have long been waiting, thinking that you would somewhere make mention of the procreation of children—how they will procreate—and, once born, how they will rear them, and this whole community of women and children of which you speak; for we think it has a great and indeed whole bearing on the constitution, whether it is done correctly or not correctly." "Now therefore, since you are laying hold of another constitution before having sufficiently discussed these things, it has been resolved by us—the very thing you heard— not to let you go until you have discussed all these things just like the rest." "And me too, then," Glaucon said, "reckon as a partner in this vote." "Rest assured," said Thrasymachus, "consider this resolved for all of us, Socrates." "What a thing you have done," I said, "in laying hold of me!
ὅσον λόγον πάλιν, ὥσπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς, κινεῖτε περὶ τῆς πολιτείας·
What a huge argument you are setting in motion again, as if from the beginning, concerning the constitution!
ἣν ὡς ἤδη διεληλυθὼς ἔγωγε ἔχαιρον, ἀγαπῶν εἴ τις ἐάσοι ταῦτα ἀποδεξάμενος ὡς τότε ἐρρήθη.
Concerning which I, on my part, was glad as if I had already finished discussing it, being content if someone would let it be, accepting them as they were spoken then.
ἃ νῦν ὑμεῖς παρακαλοῦντες οὐκ ἴστε ὅσον ἑσμὸν λόγων ἐπεγείρετε· ὃν ὁρῶν ἐγὼ παρῆκα τότε, μὴ παράσχοι πολὺν ὄχλον. τί δέ; ἦ δʼ ὃς ὁ Θρασύμαχος·
Which things you, by calling upon them now, do not know how great a swarm of arguments you are stirring up; which I, seeing it then, passed over, lest it should cause a great trouble." "What then?" said Thrasymachus.
χρυσοχοήσοντας οἴει τούσδε νῦν ἐνθάδε ἀφῖχθαι, ἀλλʼ οὐ λόγων ἀκουσομένους; ναί, εἶπον, μετρίων γε. μέτρον δέ γʼ, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ Γλαύκων, τοιούτων λόγων ἀκούειν ὅλος ὁ βίος νοῦν ἔχουσιν.
"Do you think these people have come here now to pan for gold, and not to listen to arguments?" "Yes," I said, "but moderate ones at least." "But the measure," Glaucon said, "Socrates, of listening to such arguments is the whole of life for those who have sense.
ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν ἡμέτερον ἔα· σὺ δὲ περὶ ὧν ἐρωτῶμεν μηδαμῶς ἀποκάμῃς ᾗ σοι δοκεῖ διεξιών, τίς ἡ κοινωνία τοῖς φύλαξιν ἡμῖν παίδων τε πέρι καὶ γυναικῶν ἔσται καὶ τροφῆς νέων ἔτι ὄντων, τῆς ἐν τῷ μεταξὺ χρόνῳ γιγνομένης γενέσεώς τε καὶ παιδείας, ἣ δὴ ἐπιπονωτάτη δοκεῖ εἶναι.
But let our affairs be; and do not you in any way grow weary of explaining in the way that seems fit to you what the community of children and women will be for our guardians, and the rearing of them while they are still young, during the intervening period of their birth and education, which indeed seems to be most troublesome.
πειρῶ οὖν εἰπεῖν τίνα τρόπον δεῖ γίγνεσθαι αὐτήν. οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ εὔδαιμον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, διελθεῖν· πολλὰς γὰρ ἀπιστίας ἔχει ἔτι μᾶλλον τῶν ἔμπροσθεν ὧν διήλθομεν.
Try therefore to say in what manner it must take place." "It is not easy, my happy friend," I said, "to discuss; for it holds many grounds for disbelief, even more than the things we discussed before.
καὶ γὰρ ὡς δυνατὰ λέγεται, ἀπιστοῖτʼ ἄν, καὶ εἰ ὅτι μάλιστα γένοιτο, ὡς ἄριστʼ ἂν εἴη ταῦτα, καὶ ταύτῃ ἀπιστήσεται.
For both as to whether the things said are possible, it would be disbelieved, and even if they should happen in the highest degree, whether these things would be best, this too will be disbelieved.
διὸ δὴ καὶ ὄκνος τις αὐτῶν ἅπτεσθαι, μὴ εὐχὴ δοκῇ εἶναι ὁ λόγος, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε. μηδέν, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ὄκνει· οὔτε γὰρ ἀγνώμονες οὔτε ἄπιστοι οὔτε δύσνοι οἱ ἀκουσόμενοι. καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· ὦ ἄριστε, ἦ που βουλόμενός με παραθαρρύνειν λέγεις; ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
Wherefore indeed there is also a certain hesitation to touch upon them, lest the argument should seem to be a mere wish, my dear companion." "Do not hesitate at all," he said; "for those who are going to listen are neither undiscerning, nor disbelieving, nor ill-disposed." And I said, "O best of men, is it indeed wishing to encourage me that you speak?" "Indeed I do," he said.
πᾶν τοίνυν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοὐναντίον ποιεῖς.
"Then," I said, "you are doing the very opposite.
πιστεύοντος μὲν γὰρ ἐμοῦ ἐμοὶ εἰδέναι ἃ λέγω, καλῶς εἶχεν ἡ παραμυθία· ἐν γὰρ φρονίμοις τε καὶ φίλοις περὶ τῶν μεγίστων τε καὶ φίλων τἀληθῆ εἰδότα λέγειν ἀσφαλὲς καὶ θαρραλέον,
For if I were confident that I knew what I am saying, your comfort would be well; for to speak the truth when one knows it, among wise and friendly people, concerning the greatest and dearest things, is safe and encouraging,"