§5.451ἀπιστοῦντα δὲ καὶ ζητοῦντα ἅμα τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι, ὃ δὴ ἐγὼ δρῶ, φοβερόν τε καὶ σφαλερόν, οὔ τι γέλωτα ὀφλεῖν— παιδικὸν γὰρ τοῦτό γε—ἀλλὰ μὴ σφαλεὶς τῆς ἀληθείας οὐ μόνον αὐτὸς ἀλλὰ καὶ τοὺς φίλους συνεπισπασάμενος κείσομαι περὶ ἃ ἥκιστα δεῖ σφάλλεσθαι.
"But to make arguments while disbelieving and searching at the same time, which is indeed what I am doing, is frightening and slippery. It is not at all a matter of incurring laughter—for that indeed is childish—but lest, having slipped from the truth, I shall lie fallen not only myself but also dragging my friends along with me, in matters where one least ought to slip.
προσκυνῶ δὲ Ἀδράστειαν, ὦ Γλαύκων, χάριν οὗ μέλλω λέγειν· ἐλπίζω γὰρ οὖν ἔλαττον ἁμάρτημα ἀκουσίως τινὸς φονέα γενέσθαι ἢ ἀπατεῶνα καλῶν τε καὶ ἀγαθῶν καὶ δικαίων νομίμων πέρι.
And I bow to Adrasteia, Glaucon, for the sake of what I am about to say; for I hope indeed that it is a lesser transgression to become an involuntary murderer of someone than a deceiver concerning beautiful and good and just institutions.
τοῦτο οὖν τὸ κινδύνευμα κινδυνεύειν ἐν ἐχθροῖς κρεῖττον ἢ φίλοις, ὥστε εὖ με παραμυθῇ. καὶ ὁ Γλαύκων γελάσας, ἀλλʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, ἐάν τι πάθωμεν πλημμελὲς ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου, ἀφίεμέν σε ὥσπερ φόνου καὶ καθαρὸν εἶναι καὶ μὴ ἀπατεῶνα ἡμῶν.
Therefore, to run this risk is better among enemies than friends, so that you comfort me poorly." And Glaucon, laughing, said, "But, Socrates, if we suffer anything discordant from your argument, we acquit you as if of homicide, both to be pure and not to be a deceiver of us.
ἀλλὰ θαρρήσας λέγε. ἀλλὰ μέντοι, εἶπον, καθαρός γε καὶ ἐκεῖ ὁ ἀφεθείς, ὡς ὁ νόμος λέγει· εἰκὸς δέ γε, εἴπερ ἐκεῖ, κἀνθάδε. λέγε τοίνυν, ἔφη, τούτου γʼ ἕνεκα. λέγειν δή, ἔφην ἐγώ, χρὴ ἀνάπαλιν αὖ νῦν, ἃ τότε ἴσως ἔδει ἐφεξῆς λέγειν·
But speak with confidence." "But indeed," I said, "the one who has been acquitted there is indeed pure, as the law says; and it is reasonable, if indeed there, so also here." "Speak then," he said, "for the sake of this at least." "We must indeed speak," I said, "backwards again now, what then perhaps was necessary to say in order; but perhaps in this way it would be correct, after the male drama has been completely finished, to complete the female one in turn, especially since you challenge me in this way.
τάχα δὲ οὕτως ἂν ὀρθῶς ἔχοι, μετὰ ἀνδρεῖον δρᾶμα παντελῶς διαπερανθὲν τὸ γυναικεῖον αὖ περαίνειν, ἄλλως τε καὶ ἐπειδὴ σὺ οὕτω προκαλῇ. ἀνθρώποις γὰρ φῦσι καὶ παιδευθεῖσιν ὡς ἡμεῖς διήλθομεν, κατʼ ἐμὴν δόξαν οὐκ ἔστʼ ἄλλη ὀρθὴ παίδων τε καὶ γυναικῶν κτῆσίς τε καὶ χρεία ἢ κατʼ ἐκείνην τὴν ὁρμὴν ἰοῦσιν, ἥνπερ τὸ πρῶτον ὡρμήσαμεν· ἐπεχειρήσαμεν δέ που ὡς ἀγέλης φύλακας τοὺς ἄνδρας καθιστάναι τῷ λόγῳ. ναί. ἀκολουθῶμεν τοίνυν καὶ τὴν γένεσιν καὶ τροφὴν παραπλησίαν ἀποδιδόντες, καὶ σκοπῶμεν εἰ ἡμῖν πρέπει ἢ οὔ. πῶς;
For in the case of human beings who have been born and educated as we explained, in my opinion there is no other correct acquisition and use of children and women than for those going according to that impulse with which we first set out; and we attempted, I suppose, to establish the men as guardians of a herd in the argument." "Yes." "Let us then follow, assigning also a similar birth and rearing, and let us consider whether it is fitting for us or not." "How?" he said.
ἔφη. ὧδε.
"In this way.
τὰς θηλείας τῶν φυλάκων κυνῶν πότερα συμφυλάττειν οἰόμεθα δεῖν ἅπερ ἂν οἱ ἄρρενες φυλάττωσι καὶ συνθηρεύειν καὶ τἆλλα κοινῇ πράττειν, ἢ τὰς μὲν οἰκουρεῖν ἔνδον ὡς ἀδυνάτους διὰ τὸν τῶν σκυλάκων τόκον τε καὶ τροφήν, τοὺς δὲ πονεῖν τε καὶ πᾶσαν ἐπιμέλειαν ἔχειν περὶ τὰ ποίμνια; κοινῇ, ἔφη, πάντα· πλὴν ὡς ἀσθενεστέραις χρώμεθα, τοῖς δὲ ὡς ἰσχυροτέροις. οἷόν τʼ οὖν, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἐπὶ τὰ αὐτὰ χρῆσθαί τινι ζῴῳ, ἂν μὴ τὴν αὐτὴν τροφήν τε καὶ παιδείαν ἀποδιδῷς; οὐχ οἷόν τε. §5.452εἰ ἄρα ταῖς γυναιξὶν ἐπὶ ταὐτὰ χρησόμεθα καὶ τοῖς ἀνδράσι, ταὐτὰ καὶ διδακτέον αὐτάς. ναί. μουσικὴ μὴν ἐκείνοις γε καὶ γυμναστικὴ ἐδόθη. ναί. καὶ ταῖς γυναιξὶν ἄρα τούτω τὼ τέχνα καὶ τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἀποδοτέον καὶ χρηστέον κατὰ ταὐτά. εἰκὸς ἐξ ὧν λέγεις, ἔφη.
Do we think that the females of the guardian dogs ought to guard together the very things that the males guard, and hunt together, and do the other things in common, or that the females should keep house inside as being incapable because of the birth and rearing of the puppies, while the males should labor and have all the care concerning the flocks?" "In common," he said, "all things; except that we use them as being weaker, and the others as being stronger." "Is it possible then," I said, "to use any animal for the same things, unless you assign to it the same rearing and education?" "It is not possible." "If therefore we are to use the women for the same things as the men, the same things must also be taught to them." "Yes." "Now music indeed and gymnastics were given to those men." "Yes." "Then to the women also these two arts and the things concerning war must be assigned, and they must be used according to the same things." "It is likely from what you say," he said.
ἴσως δή, εἶπον, παρὰ τὸ ἔθος γελοῖα ἂν φαίνοιτο πολλὰ περὶ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα, εἰ πράξεται ᾗ λέγεται. καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
"Perhaps indeed," I said, "contrary to custom, many of the things now being said would appear ridiculous, if they are to be done in the way they are said." "Very much so," he said.
τί, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, γελοιότατον αὐτῶν ὁρᾷς;
"What," I said, "do you see as the most ridiculous of them?
ἢ δῆλα δὴ ὅτι γυμνὰς τὰς γυναῖκας ἐν ταῖς παλαίστραις γυμναζομένας μετὰ τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οὐ μόνον τὰς νέας, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἤδη τὰς πρεσβυτέρας, ὥσπερ τοὺς γέροντας ἐν τοῖς γυμνασίοις, ὅταν ῥυσοὶ καὶ μὴ ἡδεῖς τὴν ὄψιν ὅμως φιλογυμναστῶσιν; νὴ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· γελοῖον γὰρ ἄν, ὥς γε ἐν τῷ παρεστῶτι, φανείη. οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐπείπερ ὡρμήσαμεν λέγειν, οὐ φοβητέον τὰ τῶν χαριέντων σκώμματα, ὅσα καὶ οἷα ἂν εἴποιεν εἰς τὴν τοιαύτην μεταβολὴν γενομένην καὶ περὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ περὶ μουσικὴν καὶ οὐκ ἐλάχιστα περὶ τὴν τῶν ὅπλων σχέσιν καὶ ἵππων ὀχήσεις. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις. ἀλλʼ ἐπείπερ λέγειν ἠρξάμεθα, πορευτέον πρὸς τὸ τραχὺ τοῦ νόμου, δεηθεῖσίν τε τούτων μὴ τὰ αὑτῶν πράττειν ἀλλὰ σπουδάζειν, καὶ ὑπομνήσασιν ὅτι οὐ πολὺς χρόνος ἐξ οὗ τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἐδόκει αἰσχρὰ εἶναι καὶ γελοῖα ἅπερ νῦν τοῖς πολλοῖς τῶν βαρβάρων, γυμνοὺς ἄνδρας ὁρᾶσθαι, καὶ ὅτε ἤρχοντο τῶν γυμνασίων πρῶτοι μὲν Κρῆτες, ἔπειτα Λακεδαιμόνιοι, ἐξῆν τοῖς τότε ἀστείοις πάντα ταῦτα κωμῳδεῖν. ἢ οὐκ οἴει; ἔγωγε.
Or is it indeed clear that it is the women being trained naked in the wrestling schools with the men, not only the young ones, but also indeed the older women, just like the old men in the gymnastics, when being wrinkled and not pleasant to the sight they nevertheless love gymnastics?" "By Zeus," he said, "for it would appear ridiculous, at least as things now stand." "Therefore," I said, "since we have set out to speak, we must not fear the jests of the witty, however many and of what kind they might say against such a change taking place, both concerning gymnastics and concerning music, and not least concerning the possession of arms and the riding of horses." "Correctly," he said, "you speak." "But since we have begun to speak, we must proceed to the rough part of the law, having petitioned these people not to do their own business but to be serious, and having reminded them that it is not a long time since it seemed shameful and ridiculous to the Greeks—just as now to most of the barbarians—for naked men to be seen, and when the Cretans first, and then the Lacedaemonians, began the gymnastics, it was open to the witty of that time to comedy all these things.
ἀλλʼ ἐπειδὴ οἶμαι χρωμένοις ἄμεινον τὸ ἀποδύεσθαι τοῦ συγκαλύπτειν πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐφάνη, καὶ τὸ ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς δὴ γελοῖον ἐξερρύη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἐν τοῖς λόγοις μηνυθέντος ἀρίστου· καὶ τοῦτο ἐνεδείξατο, ὅτι μάταιος ὃς γελοῖον ἄλλο τι ἡγεῖται ἢ τὸ κακόν, καὶ ὁ γελωτοποιεῖν ἐπιχειρῶν πρὸς ἄλλην τινὰ ὄψιν ἀποβλέπων ὡς γελοίου ἢ τὴν τοῦ ἄφρονός τε καὶ κακοῦ, καὶ καλοῦ αὖ σπουδάζει πρὸς ἄλλον τινὰ σκοπὸν στησάμενος ἢ τὸν τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
Or do you not think so?" "I do indeed." "But when, I think, to those practicing it, the stripping off was shown to be better than the covering of all such things, and the ridiculous in the eyes indeed flowed away under the influence of the best pointed out in the arguments; and this showed that he is foolish who deems anything else ridiculous than the bad, and who attempts to make a laughingstock by looking away to any other sight of the ridiculous than that of the foolish and the bad, and who in turn is serious about the beautiful having set up any other mark than that of the good." "Entirely so indeed," he said.","zh":" 「但在确信不足的同时，又边探求边进行讨论，正如我现在所做的那样，是令人恐惧且危险的。这绝不是因为害怕招致嘲笑——因为那确实是幼稚的——而是害怕我在真理上失足，不仅我自己，还把朋友们一起拖下水，跌倒在最不应该失足的事情上。格劳孔，为了我将要说的话，我向阿德拉斯泰亚神额首。因为我希望，无意中成为某人的杀人凶手，比在美、善以及正义的制度上成为骗子，是更轻的罪过。因此，在敌人中间冒这种危险，要比在朋友中间更好。所以你对我的安慰并不合适。」格劳孔笑着说：「但是，苏格拉底，如果我们因你的论证而遭受什么不合拍的损害，我们释放你，就像免除杀人罪一样，让你保持清白，而不是我们的骗子。请你充满信心，说吧。」「但是，」我说，「正如法律所说，在那边被开释的人确实是清白的；而且如果那边是这样，这边也同样是合情合理的。」「那么，」他说，「就为了这个，请说吧。」「那么，」我说，「我们现在必须反过来，把当时也许应该顺着次序说的话再说一遍。不过，在男子的戏剧完全演完之后，再轮到完成女子的戏剧，也许这样倒是正确的，尤其是因为你这样催促。因为对于像我们所阐明的那样出生和接受教育的人来说，在我看来，除了沿着我们最初出发的那种冲动前进之外，没有其他正确的子女和妇女占有和使用的方式。而我们在论证中，大概曾试图把男人们确立为牛群的守护者。」「是的。」「那么，让我们跟从这一方向，赋予她们类似的生育和抚养，并看看这是否适合我们。」「怎么看？」他说。「像这样。我们认为番犬的雌犬，是否应该一起看守雄犬所看守的东西，一起狩猎，并共同做其他所有的事情？还是说，雌犬因为要生育和抚养幼犬而无法做到，只能在家里留守，而雄犬则去劳作并承担对羊群的所有照料？」「全部共同，」他说，「除了我们把雌犬当成较弱的来对待，把雄犬当成较强的来对待以外。」「那么，」我说，「如果对任何动物不给予相同的抚养和教育，是否可能将它们用于相同的事情呢？」「不可能。」「因此，如果我们要在相同的事情上使用妇女和男人，就必须教给她们相同的事情。」「是的。」「不过，确实已经给男人们提供了文艺和体育。」「是的。」「那么对妇女也必须赋予这两门技术以及关于战争的事物，并以同样的方式使用。」「从你所说的来看，这是理所当然的，」他说。「也许，」我说，「如果按照所说的那样去实行，现在所说的许多事情会反常地显得滑稽。」「确实如此，」他说。「你觉得，」我说，「其中最滑稽的是什么？还是说这显然是：妇女们在角力场上与男人们一起光着身子训练，不仅是年轻的，而且还有那些已经上了年纪的，就像体育馆里的老人们，虽然满脸皱纹、相貌不雅，却依然热爱训练一样？」「凭宙斯起誓，」他说，「因为如果按照现状来看，这确实显得滑稽。」「因此，」我说，「既然我们已经开始说了，就不要害怕那些风雅之士的嘲笑，无论他们会对这种在体育和文艺方面发生的变革，尤其是关于武器的持有和骑马，说些什么，说得多难听。」「你说的很对，」他说。「但是，既然我们已经开始说了，就必须走向法律的险阻之处，请求那些人不要做他们自己的行当，而是要严肃对待，并提醒他们：希腊人认为——就像现在大多数野蛮人所认为的那样——看到光着身子的男人是可耻和滑稽的时代，并没有过去多久。当克里特人首先、接着斯巴达人开始体育时，当时的雅致之人可以对这一切进行滑稽戏谑。难道你不这么认为吗？」「我是这么想的。」「但是，我想，当对于实践它的人来说，脱去衣服被证明比遮盖一切这样的事情更好时，眼睛里所见的滑稽就被言论中所展示的最善所冲刷掉了。这也表明：谁要是把邪恶之外的任何东西视为滑稽，或者谁要是把目光转向愚蠢和邪恶之外的任何景象来作为滑稽而试图引人发笑，或者谁要是把美的追求建立在善之外的任何其他目标上，那他就是虚妄的。」「完全是这样，」他说。」,