§4.436γελοῖον γὰρ ἂν εἴη εἴ τις οἰηθείη τὸ θυμοειδὲς μὴ ἐκ τῶν ἰδιωτῶν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἐγγεγονέναι, οἳ δὴ καὶ ἔχουσι ταύτην τὴν αἰτίαν, οἷον οἱ κατὰ τὴν Θρᾴκην τε καὶ Σκυθικὴν καὶ σχεδόν τι κατὰ τὸν ἄνω τόπον, ἢ τὸ φιλομαθές, ὃ δὴ τὸν παρʼ ἡμῖν μάλιστʼ ἄν τις αἰτιάσαιτο τόπον, ἢ τὸ φιλοχρήματον τὸ περὶ τούς τε Φοίνικας εἶναι καὶ τοὺς κατὰ Αἴγυπτον φαίη τις ἂν οὐχ ἥκιστα.
For it would be ridiculous if anyone should think that the spirited part has not come to be in cities from the individual citizens, who indeed also have this reputation, such as those in Thrace and Scythia and practically throughout the northern region, or the love of learning, which indeed one might most of all charge to our own region, or the love of money, which one might say is not least of all to be found in the Phoenicians and those in Egypt.
καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
Very much so, he said.
τοῦτο μὲν δὴ οὕτως ἔχει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ οὐδὲν χαλεπὸν γνῶναι.
This indeed is so, I said, and it is not difficult to know.
οὐ δῆτα.
Not at all.
τόδε δὲ ἤδη χαλεπόν, εἰ τῷ αὐτῷ τούτῳ ἕκαστα πράττομεν ἢ τρισὶν οὖσιν ἄλλο ἄλλῳ· μανθάνομεν μὲν ἑτέρῳ, θυμούμεθα δὲ ἄλλῳ τῶν ἐν ἡμῖν, ἐπιθυμοῦμεν δʼ αὖ τρίτῳ τινὶ τῶν περὶ τὴν τροφήν τε καὶ γέννησιν ἡδονῶν καὶ ὅσα τούτων ἀδελφά, ἢ ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχῇ καθʼ ἕκαστον αὐτῶν πράττομεν, ὅταν ὁρμήσωμεν.
But this is already difficult, whether we perform each of these actions with the same part of ourselves, or with three parts, one with one and another with another; that is, whether we learn with one part, feel spirited with another of the parts within us, and desire with a third part the pleasures concerning food and reproduction and whatever is sister to these, or whether we act with the whole soul in each of them whenever we start moving.
ταῦτʼ ἔσται τὰ χαλεπὰ διορίσασθαι ἀξίως λόγου.
These are the things that will be difficult to distinguish in a way worthy of discussion.
καὶ ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, ἔφη.
It seems so to me too, he said.
ὧδε τοίνυν ἐπιχειρῶμεν αὐτὰ ὁρίζεσθαι, εἴτε τὰ αὐτὰ ἀλλήλοις εἴτε ἕτερά ἐστι.
Let us then attempt to define them in this way, whether they are the same as one another or different.
πῶς;
How?
δῆλον ὅτι ταὐτὸν τἀναντία ποιεῖν ἢ πάσχειν κατὰ ταὐτόν γε καὶ πρὸς ταὐτὸν οὐκ ἐθελήσει ἅμα, ὥστε ἄν που εὑρίσκωμεν ἐν αὐτοῖς ταῦτα γιγνόμενα, εἰσόμεθα ὅτι οὐ ταὐτὸν ἦν ἀλλὰ πλείω.
It is clear that the same thing will not be willing to do or undergo opposites at the same time, in the same respect, and in relation to the same thing, so that if we ever find these things happening in them, we shall know that it was not the same but more than one.
εἶεν.
Very well.
σκόπει δὴ ὃ λέγω.
Consider then what I say.
λέγε, ἔφη.
Say on, he said.
ἑστάναι, εἶπον, καὶ κινεῖσθαι τὸ αὐτὸ ἅμα κατὰ τὸ αὐτὸ ἆρα δυνατόν;
Is it possible, I said, for the same thing to stand still and to move at the same time in the same respect?
οὐδαμῶς.
In no way.
ἔτι τοίνυν ἀκριβέστερον ὁμολογησώμεθα, μή πῃ προϊόντες ἀμφισβητήσωμεν.
Let us agree still more accurately, lest as we go forward we dispute.
εἰ γάρ τις λέγοι ἄνθρωπον ἑστηκότα, κινοῦντα δὲ τὰς χεῖράς τε καὶ τὴν κεφαλήν, ὅτι ὁ αὐτὸς ἕστηκέ τε καὶ κινεῖται ἅμα, οὐκ ἂν οἶμαι ἀξιοῖμεν οὕτω λέγειν δεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὅτι τὸ μέν τι αὐτοῦ ἕστηκε, τὸ δὲ κινεῖται.
For if someone should say of a man standing still, but moving his hands and his head, that the same man stands still and moves at the same time, we would not, I think, deem it right to speak in this way, but that one part of him stands still and another moves.
οὐχ οὕτω;
Is it not so?
οὕτω.
It is so.
οὐκοῦν καὶ εἰ ἔτι μᾶλλον χαριεντίζοιτο ὁ ταῦτα λέγων, κομψευόμενος ὡς οἵ γε στρόβιλοι ὅλοι ἑστᾶσί τε ἅμα καὶ κινοῦνται, ὅταν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ πήξαντες τὸ κέντρον περιφέρωνται, ἢ καὶ ἄλλο τι κύκλῳ περιιὸν ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ ἕδρᾳ τοῦτο δρᾷ, οὐκ ἂν ἀποδεχοίμεθα, ὡς οὐ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἑαυτῶν τὰ τοιαῦτα τότε μενόντων τε καὶ φερομένων, ἀλλὰ φαῖμεν ἂν ἔχειν αὐτὰ εὐθύ τε καὶ περιφερὲς ἐν αὑτοῖς, καὶ κατὰ μὲν τὸ εὐθὺ ἑστάναι—οὐδαμῇ γὰρ ἀποκλίνειν—κατὰ δὲ τὸ περιφερὲς κύκλῳ κινεῖσθαι, καὶ ὅταν δὲ τὴν εὐθυωρίαν ἢ εἰς δεξιὰν ἢ εἰς ἀριστερὰν ἢ εἰς τὸ πρόσθεν ἢ εἰς τὸ ὄπισθεν ἐγκλίνῃ ἅμα περιφερόμενον, τότε οὐδαμῇ ἑστάναι.
Therefore, even if the one who says these things should play the wit still more, subtly arguing that spinning tops as wholes stand still and move at the same time when, having fixed their pivot in the same spot, they revolve, or that anything else going around in a circle in the same spot does this, we would not accept it, on the ground that such things do not then remain still and move in respect to the same parts of themselves. Rather, we would say that they have both a straight axis and a circumference in themselves, and in respect to the straight axis they stand still—for they do not lean in any direction—but in respect to the circumference they move in a circle; and when they incline the straight line either to the right or to the left or to the front or to the back while revolving, then they stand still in no way.
καὶ ὀρθῶς γε, ἔφη.
Quite rightly, he said.