§4.434καὶ ταύτῃ ἄρα πῃ ἡ τοῦ οἰκείου τε καὶ ἑαυτοῦ ἕξις τε καὶ πρᾶξις δικαιοσύνη ἂν ὁμολογοῖτο.
And in this way, then, somehow, the possession and practice of what is proper and one's own would be agreed to be justice.
ἔστι ταῦτα.
That is so.
ἰδὲ δὴ ἐὰν σοὶ ὅπερ ἐμοὶ συνδοκῇ.
Look now if you agree with what seems so to me.
τέκτων σκυτοτόμου ἐπιχειρῶν ἔργα ἐργάζεσθαι ἢ σκυτοτόμος τέκτονος, ἢ τὰ ὄργανα μεταλαμβάνοντες τἀλλήλων ἢ τιμάς, ἢ καὶ ὁ αὐτὸς ἐπιχειρῶν ἀμφότερα πράττειν, πάντα τἆλλα μεταλλαττόμενα, ἆρά σοι ἄν τι δοκεῖ μέγα βλάψαι πόλιν;
If a carpenter attempts to do the work of a shoemaker, or a shoemaker that of a carpenter, or if they exchange each other's tools or honors, or if the same person attempts to do both, with all other such things interchanged, do you think it would do any great harm to the city?
οὐ πάνυ, ἔφη.
Not very much, he said.
ἀλλʼ ὅταν γε οἶμαι δημιουργὸς ὢν ἤ τις ἄλλος χρηματιστὴς φύσει, ἔπειτα ἐπαιρόμενος ἢ πλούτῳ ἢ πλήθει ἢ ἰσχύι ἢ ἄλλῳ τῳ τοιούτῳ εἰς τὸ τοῦ πολεμικοῦ εἶδος ἐπιχειρῇ ἰέναι, ἢ τῶν πολεμικῶν τις εἰς τὸ τοῦ βουλευτικοῦ καὶ φύλακος ἀνάξιος ὤν, καὶ τὰ ἀλλήλων οὗτοι ὄργανα μεταλαμβάνωσι καὶ τὰς τιμάς, ἢ ὅταν ὁ αὐτὸς πάντα ταῦτα ἅμα ἐπιχειρῇ πράττειν, τότε οἶμαι καὶ σοὶ δοκεῖν ταύτην τὴν τούτων μεταβολὴν καὶ πολυπραγμοσύνην ὄλεθρον εἶναι τῇ πόλει.
But when, I think, someone who is by nature a craftsman or some other money-maker, puffed up then by wealth or multitude or strength or some other such thing, attempts to enter into the class of the warrior, or one of the warriors attempts to enter into that of the counselor and guardian, being unworthy of it, and these exchange each other's tools and honors, or when the same person attempts to do all these things at once, then, I think, you too believe that this interchange and meddling of these is the ruin of the city.
παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
By all means.
ἡ τριῶν ἄρα ὄντων γενῶν πολυπραγμοσύνη καὶ μεταβολὴ εἰς ἄλληλα μεγίστη τε βλάβη τῇ πόλει καὶ ὀρθότατʼ ἂν προσαγορεύοιτο μάλιστα κακουργία.
Therefore, the meddling of these three classes and their interchange with one another is the greatest harm to the city, and would most correctly be called above all villainy.
κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν.
Precisely so.
κακουργίαν δὲ τὴν μεγίστην τῆς ἑαυτοῦ πόλεως οὐκ ἀδικίαν φήσεις εἶναι;
And would you not say that the greatest villainy against one's own city is injustice?
πῶς δʼ οὔ;
How could I not?
τοῦτο μὲν ἄρα ἀδικία.
This, then, is injustice.
πάλιν δὲ ὧδε λέγωμεν· χρηματιστικοῦ, ἐπικουρικοῦ, φυλακικοῦ γένους οἰκειοπραγία, ἑκάστου τούτων τὸ αὑτοῦ πράττοντος ἐν πόλει, τοὐναντίον ἐκείνου δικαιοσύνη τʼ ἂν εἴη καὶ τὴν πόλιν δικαίαν παρέχοι;
And let us say it again in this way: the performing of its own proper business by the money-making, auxiliary, and guarding classes, each of these doing its own business in the city, being the opposite of that, would be justice and would make the city just?
οὐκ ἄλλῃ ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἔχειν ἢ ταύτῃ.
It seems to me to be in no other way than this, he said.
μηδέν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πω πάνυ παγίως αὐτὸ λέγωμεν, ἀλλʼ ἐὰν μὲν ἡμῖν καὶ εἰς ἕνα ἕκαστον τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἰὸν τὸ εἶδος τοῦτο ὁμολογῆται καὶ ἐκεῖ δικαιοσύνη εἶναι, συγχωρησόμεθα ἤδη—τί γὰρ καὶ ἐροῦμεν; —εἰ δὲ μή, τότε ἄλλο τι σκεψόμεθα.
Let us not yet, I said, assert it quite firmly, but if this form, when applied also to each individual human being, is agreed to be justice there too, we will then concede it—for what else shall we say? —but if not, then we will consider something else.
νῦν δʼ ἐκτελέσωμεν τὴν σκέψιν ἣν ᾠήθημεν, εἰ ἐν μείζονί τινι τῶν ἐχόντων δικαιοσύνην πρότερον ἢ ἐκεῖ ἐπιχειρήσαιμεν θεάσασθαι, ῥᾷον ἂν ἐν ἑνὶ ἀνθρώπῳ κατιδεῖν οἷόν ἐστιν.
But now let us complete the inquiry we decided upon: if we attempted to behold justice first in some larger thing among those that possess it, it would be easier to perceive what it is like in a single human being.
καὶ ἔδοξε δὴ ἡμῖν τοῦτο εἶναι πόλις, καὶ οὕτω ᾠκίζομεν ὡς ἐδυνάμεθα ἀρίστην, εὖ εἰδότες ὅτι ἔν γε τῇ ἀγαθῇ ἂν εἴη.
And indeed, this seemed to us to be a city, and so we founded it as best we could, knowing well that it would be in a good one.
ὃ οὖν ἡμῖν ἐκεῖ ἐφάνη, ἐπαναφέρωμεν εἰς τὸν ἕνα, κἂν μὲν ὁμολογῆται, καλῶς ἕξει· §4.435ἐὰν δέ τι ἄλλο ἐν τῷ ἑνὶ ἐμφαίνηται, πάλιν ἐπανιόντες ἐπὶ τὴν πόλιν βασανιοῦμεν, καὶ τάχʼ ἂν παρʼ ἄλληλα σκοποῦντες καὶ τρίβοντες, ὥσπερ ἐκ πυρείων ἐκλάμψαι ποιήσαιμεν τὴν δικαιοσύνην· καὶ φανερὰν γενομένην βεβαιωσόμεθα αὐτὴν παρʼ ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς.
What therefore appeared to us there, let us transfer to the individual; and if it is agreed, it will be well; but if something else should appear in the individual, we will return again to the city and test it, and perhaps, examining them side by side and rubbing them together, like fire-sticks, we might make justice shine out; and when it becomes manifest, we will confirm it for ourselves.
ἀλλʼ, ἔφη, καθʼ ὁδόν τε λέγεις καὶ ποιεῖν χρὴ οὕτως.
Well, he said, you speak along the right path, and we must do so.
ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅ γε ταὐτὸν ἄν τις προσείποι μεῖζόν τε καὶ ἔλαττον, ἀνόμοιον τυγχάνει ὂν ταύτῃ ᾗ ταὐτὸν προσαγορεύεται, ἢ ὅμοιον;
Is it then the case, I said, that that which one would call the same, whether larger or smaller, happens to be unlike or like in respect to that very thing by which it is called the same?
ὅμοιον, ἔφη.
Like, he said.
καὶ δίκαιος ἄρα ἀνὴρ δικαίας πόλεως κατʼ αὐτὸ τὸ τῆς δικαιοσύνης εἶδος οὐδὲν διοίσει, ἀλλʼ ὅμοιος ἔσται.
Therefore, a just man will not differ at all from a just city in respect to the very form of justice, but will be like it.
ὅμοιος, ἔφη.
Like, he said.
ἀλλὰ μέντοι πόλις γε ἔδοξεν εἶναι δικαία ὅτε ἐν αὐτῇ τριττὰ γένη φύσεων ἐνόντα τὸ αὑτῶν ἕκαστον ἔπραττεν, σώφρων δὲ αὖ καὶ ἀνδρεία καὶ σοφὴ διὰ τῶν αὐτῶν τούτων γενῶν ἄλλʼ ἄττα πάθη τε καὶ ἕξεις.
But indeed, a city was thought to be just when three classes of natures present in it each did its own business, and again moderate and courageous and wise because of certain other affections and states of these same classes.
ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
True, he said.
καὶ τὸν ἕνα ἄρα, ὦ φίλε, οὕτως ἀξιώσομεν, τὰ αὐτὰ ταῦτα εἴδη ἐν τῇ αὑτοῦ ψυχῇ ἔχοντα, διὰ τὰ αὐτὰ πάθη ἐκείνοις τῶν αὐτῶν ὀνομάτων ὀρθῶς ἀξιοῦσθαι τῇ πόλει.
And so, my friend, we will deem it right that the individual, having these same forms in his own soul, because of the same affections as those, is rightly deemed worthy of the same names as the city.
πᾶσα ἀνάγκη, ἔφη.
By all necessity, he said.
εἰς φαῦλόν γε αὖ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ θαυμάσιε, σκέμμα ἐμπεπτώκαμεν περὶ ψυχῆς, εἴτε ἔχει τὰ τρία εἴδη ταῦτα ἐν αὑτῇ εἴτε μή.
Indeed, on the contrary, my wonderful friend, I said, we have fallen into a petty inquiry concerning the soul, whether it has these three forms in itself or not.
οὐ πάνυ μοι δοκοῦμεν, ἔφη, εἰς φαῦλον· ἴσως γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ λεγόμενον ἀληθές, ὅτι χαλεπὰ τὰ καλά.
It does not seem to me at all petty, he said; for perhaps, Socrates, the saying is true, that beautiful things are difficult.
φαίνεται, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
So it appears, I said.
καὶ εὖ γʼ ἴσθι, ὦ Γλαύκων, ὡς ἡ ἐμὴ δόξα, ἀκριβῶς μὲν τοῦτο ἐκ τοιούτων μεθόδων, οἵαις νῦν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις χρώμεθα, οὐ μή ποτε λάβωμεν— ἄλλη γὰρ μακροτέρα καὶ πλείων ὁδὸς ἡ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἄγουσα —ἴσως μέντοι τῶν γε προειρημένων τε καὶ προεσκεμμένων ἀξίως.
And know well, Glaucon, that in my opinion, we shall never grasp this accurately from such methods as we are now using in our discussions—for there is another longer and more arduous path that leads to this—yet perhaps we can do so in a manner worthy of what has been said and examined before.
οὐκοῦν ἀγαπητόν; ἔφη·
Is that not acceptable, then? he said.
ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ ἔν γε τῷ παρόντι ἱκανῶς ἂν ἔχοι.
For to me, at least for the present, it would be sufficient.
ἀλλὰ μέντοι, εἶπον, ἔμοιγε καὶ πάνυ ἐξαρκέσει.
But indeed, I said, to me too it will be quite enough.
μὴ τοίνυν ἀποκάμῃς, ἔφη, ἀλλὰ σκόπει.
Do not grow weary then, he said, but consider.
ἆρʼ οὖν ἡμῖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πολλὴ ἀνάγκη ὁμολογεῖν ὅτι γε τὰ αὐτὰ ἐν ἑκάστῳ ἔνεστιν ἡμῶν εἴδη τε καὶ ἤθη ἅπερ ἐν τῇ πόλει;
Is there then, I said, a great necessity for us to agree that the same forms and characters are in each of us as are in the city?
οὐ γάρ που ἄλλοθεν ἐκεῖσε ἀφῖκται.
For they surely did not arrive there from anywhere else.