§4.425οὐκοῦν, ὃ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἐλέγομεν, τοῖς ἡμετέροις παισὶν ἐννομωτέρου εὐθὺς παιδιᾶς μεθεκτέον, ὡς παρανόμου γιγνομένης αὐτῆς καὶ παίδων τοιούτων ἐννόμους τε καὶ σπουδαίους ἐξ αὐτῶν ἄνδρας αὐξάνεσθαι ἀδύνατον ὄν;
Therefore, as we were saying from the beginning, our children must participate in a more law-abiding play from the very start, since if play becomes lawless and children become like it, it is impossible for law-abiding and excellent men to grow from them.
πῶς δʼ οὐχί; ἔφη.
"How could it be otherwise?" he said.
ὅταν δὴ ἄρα καλῶς ἀρξάμενοι παῖδες παίζειν εὐνομίαν διὰ τῆς μουσικῆς εἰσδέξωνται, πάλιν τοὐναντίον ἢ ʼκείνοις εἰς πάντα συνέπεταί τε καὶ αὔξει, ἐπανορθοῦσα εἴ τι καὶ πρότερον τῆς πόλεως ἔκειτο. ἀληθῆ μέντοι, ἔφη.
"When, then, children, having made a good start, receive orderliness through music in their play, again this, contrary to the former case, accompanies and increases everything, restoring whatever of the city was previously neglected." "True indeed," he said.
καὶ τὰ σμικρὰ ἄρα, εἶπον, δοκοῦντα εἶναι νόμιμα ἐξευρίσκουσιν οὗτοι, ἃ οἱ πρότερον ἀπώλλυσαν πάντα. τὰ ποῖα; τὰ τοιάδε· σιγάς τε τῶν νεωτέρων παρὰ πρεσβυτέροις ἃς πρέπει, καὶ κατακλίσεις καὶ ὑπαναστάσεις καὶ γονέων θεραπείας, καὶ κουράς γε καὶ ἀμπεχόνας καὶ ὑποδέσεις καὶ ὅλον τὸν τοῦ σώματος σχηματισμὸν καὶ τἆλλα ὅσα τοιαῦτα.
"And so," I said, "they will rediscover those minor customs, seemingly trivial, which their predecessors completely lost." "What kind of customs?" "Such as these: the silence of the younger before the elder when appropriate, giving up seats, standing up, care of parents, and indeed hair-cutting, clothing, footwear, and the entire deportment of the body, and all other such things.
ἢ οὐκ οἴει; ἔγωγε. νομοθετεῖν δʼ αὐτὰ οἶμαι εὔηθες· οὔτε γάρ που γίγνεται οὔτʼ ἂν μείνειεν λόγῳ τε καὶ γράμμασιν νομοθετηθέντα. πῶς γάρ; κινδυνεύει γοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε, ἐκ τῆς παιδείας ὅποι ἄν τις ὁρμήσῃ, τοιαῦτα καὶ τὰ ἑπόμενα εἶναι.
Or do you not think so?" "I do." "But to legislate these things is, I think, foolish; for they neither come into being nor would they remain by being legislated in word and in writing." "How could they?" "It is likely, then, Adeimantus," I said, "that from education, whichever way one starts, the consequences will be of the same kind.
ἢ οὐκ ἀεὶ τὸ ὅμοιον ὂν ὅμοιον παρακαλεῖ; τί μήν; καὶ τελευτῶν δὴ οἶμαι φαῖμεν ἂν εἰς ἕν τι τέλεον καὶ νεανικὸν ἀποβαίνειν αὐτὸ ἢ ἀγαθὸν ἢ καὶ τοὐναντίον. τί γὰρ οὔκ; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
Or does not like always call upon like?" "Of course." "And finally, I think, we would say it issues in some one perfect and vigorous result, either good or its contrary." "Indeed, how not?" he said.
ἐγὼ μὲν τοίνυν, εἶπον, διὰ ταῦτα οὐκ ἂν ἔτι τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐπιχειρήσαιμι νομοθετεῖν. εἰκότως γʼ, ἔφη.
"Therefore," I said, "for these reasons I would not attempt to legislate such things any further." "And with good reason," he said.
τί δέ, ὦ πρὸς θεῶν, ἔφην, τάδε τὰ ἀγοραῖα, συμβολαίων τε πέρι κατʼ ἀγορὰν ἕκαστοι ἃ πρὸς ἀλλήλους συμβάλλουσιν, εἰ δὲ βούλει, καὶ χειροτεχνικῶν περὶ συμβολαίων καὶ λοιδοριῶν καὶ αἰκίας καὶ δικῶν λήξεως καὶ δικαστῶν καταστάσεως, καὶ εἴ που τελῶν τινες ἢ πράξεις ἢ θέσεις ἀναγκαῖοί εἰσιν ἢ κατʼ ἀγορὰς ἢ λιμένας, ἢ καὶ τὸ παράπαν ἀγορανομικὰ ἄττα ἢ ἀστυνομικὰ ἢ ἐλλιμενικὰ ἢ ὅσα ἄλλα τοιαῦτα, τούτων τολμήσομέν τι νομοθετεῖν; ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἄξιον, ἔφη, ἀνδράσι καλοῖς κἀγαθοῖς ἐπιτάττειν· τὰ πολλὰ γὰρ αὐτῶν, ὅσα δεῖ νομοθετήσασθαι, ῥᾳδίως που εὑρήσουσιν. ναί, ὦ φίλε, εἶπον, ἐάν γε θεὸς αὐτοῖς διδῷ σωτηρίαν τῶν νόμων ὧν ἔμπροσθεν διήλθομεν. εἰ δὲ μή γε, ἦ δʼ ὅς, πολλὰ τοιαῦτα τιθέμενοι ἀεὶ καὶ ἐπανορθούμενοι τὸν βίον διατελοῦσιν, οἰόμενοι ἐπιλήψεσθαι τοῦ βελτίστου. λέγεις, ἔφην ἐγώ, βιώσεσθαι τοὺς τοιούτους ὥσπερ τοὺς κάμνοντάς τε καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλοντας ὑπὸ ἀκολασίας ἐκβῆναι πονηρᾶς διαίτης. §4.426πάνυ μὲν οὖν. καὶ μὴν οὗτοί γε χαριέντως διατελοῦσιν· ἰατρευόμενοι γὰρ οὐδὲν περαίνουσιν, πλήν γε ποικιλώτερα καὶ μείζω ποιοῦσι τὰ νοσήματα, καὶ ἀεὶ ἐλπίζοντες, ἐάν τις φάρμακον συμβουλεύσῃ, ὑπὸ τούτου ἔσεσθαι ὑγιεῖς. πάνυ γάρ, ἔφη, τῶν οὕτω καμνόντων τὰ τοιαῦτα πάθη. τί δέ; ἦν δʼ ἐγώ·
"But what, by the gods," I said, "about these market regulations, concerning contracts in the market which people make with one another, or if you wish, contracts of craftsmen, insults, assaults, filing of lawsuits, and the appointment of judges, and whatever duties or collections or deposits are necessary in markets or harbors, or generally any market, town, or harbor regulations, or any other such things—shall we dare to legislate any of these?" "But it is not fitting," he said, "to command excellent and good men; for most of these things, as many as need to be legislated, they will easily find for themselves." "Yes, my friend," I said, "if indeed God grants them the preservation of the laws we have previously discussed." "Otherwise," he said, "they will spend their lives always passing and amending many such laws, thinking they will attain what is best." "You mean," I said, "that such people will live like those who are sick and yet, through lack of self-control, are unwilling to abandon a bad lifestyle." "Exactly so." "And indeed they spend their lives in a charming way; for though they undergo medical treatment, they achieve nothing, except that they make their illnesses more complex and worse, yet they are always hoping that if anyone recommends a remedy, they will become healthy through it." "Indeed," he said, "the condition of those who are sick in this way is exactly like that." "And what of this?" I said.
τόδε αὐτῶν οὐ χαρίεν, τὸ πάντων ἔχθιστον ἡγεῖσθαι τὸν τἀληθῆ λέγοντα, ὅτι πρὶν ἂν μεθύων καὶ ἐμπιμπλάμενος καὶ ἀφροδισιάζων καὶ ἀργῶν παύσηται, οὔτε φάρμακα οὔτε καύσεις οὔτε τομαὶ οὐδʼ αὖ ἐπῳδαὶ αὐτὸν οὐδὲ περίαπτα οὐδὲ ἄλλο τῶν τοιούτων οὐδὲν ὀνήσει; οὐ πάνυ χαρίεν, ἔφη· τὸ γὰρ τῷ εὖ λέγοντι χαλεπαίνειν οὐκ ἔχει χάριν. οὐκ ἐπαινέτης εἶ, ἔφην ἐγώ, ὡς ἔοικας, τῶν τοιούτων ἀνδρῶν. οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δία. οὐδʼ ἂν ἡ πόλις ἄρα, ὅπερ ἄρτι ἐλέγομεν, ὅλη τοιοῦτον ποιῇ, οὐκ ἐπαινέσῃ.
"Is it not charming in them to regard as their greatest enemy the one who tells them the truth—namely, that until they stop drinking, stuffing themselves, wenching, and being idle, neither drugs, nor burnings, nor cuttings, nor spells, nor amulets, nor any other such things will help them?" "Not very charming," he said, "for to be angry with the one who speaks well has no charm." "You are not an admirer, it seems," I said, "of such men." "No, indeed, by Zeus." "Nor, therefore, if the entire city, as we were just saying, does such a thing, will you praise it.
ἢ οὐ φαίνονταί σοι ταὐτὸν ἐργάζεσθαι τούτοις τῶν πόλεων ὅσαι κακῶς πολιτευόμεναι προαγορεύουσι τοῖς πολίταις τὴν μὲν κατάστασιν τῆς πόλεως ὅλην μὴ κινεῖν, ὡς ἀποθανουμένους, ὃς ἂν τοῦτο δρᾷ· ὃς δʼ ἂν σφᾶς οὕτω πολιτευομένους ἥδιστα θεραπεύῃ καὶ χαρίζηται ὑποτρέχων καὶ προγιγνώσκων τὰς σφετέρας βουλήσεις καὶ ταύτας δεινὸς ᾖ ἀποπληροῦν, οὗτος ἄρα ἀγαθός τε ἔσται ἀνὴρ καὶ σοφὸς τὰ μεγάλα καὶ τιμήσεται ὑπὸ σφῶν; ταὐτὸν μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, ἔμοιγε δοκοῦσι δρᾶν, καὶ οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν ἐπαινῶ. τί δʼ αὖ τοὺς ἐθέλοντας θεραπεύειν τὰς τοιαύτας πόλεις καὶ προθυμουμένους;
Or do they not seem to you to do the same as these sick people, namely, those of the cities which, being badly governed, warn their citizens not to disturb the entire constitution of the city, under pain of death to whoever does so, while honoring as a good man and one wise in great matters, and holding in high regard, anyone who most pleasantly courts them under this governance, serving them and anticipating their wishes, being clever at fulfilling them?" "They seem to me to do the same indeed," he said, "and I do not praise them in any way." "But what again of those who are willing to court such cities and are eager to do so?
οὐκ ἄγασαι τῆς ἀνδρείας τε καὶ εὐχερείας; ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη, πλήν γʼ ὅσοι ἐξηπάτηνται ὑπʼ αὐτῶν καὶ οἴονται τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πολιτικοὶ εἶναι, ὅτι ἐπαινοῦνται ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν. πῶς λέγεις;
Do you not admire their courage and readiness?" "I do," he said, "except for those who have been deceived by them and think they are truly statesmen because they are praised by the multitude." "How do you mean?
οὐ συγγιγνώσκεις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοῖς ἀνδράσιν;
Do you not forgive the men?" I said.
ἢ οἴει οἷόν τʼ εἶναι ἀνδρὶ μὴ ἐπισταμένῳ μετρεῖν, ἑτέρων τοιούτων πολλῶν λεγόντων ὅτι τετράπηχύς ἐστιν, αὐτὸν ταῦτα μὴ ἡγεῖσθαι περὶ αὑτοῦ; οὐκ αὖ, ἔφη, τοῦτό γε.
"Or do you think it possible for a man who does not know how to measure, when many other such people tell him he is four cubits tall, not to believe this about himself?" "No, not that again," he said.
μὴ τοίνυν χαλέπαινε· καὶ γάρ πού εἰσι πάντων χαριέστατοι οἱ τοιοῦτοι, νομοθετοῦντές τε οἷα ἄρτι διήλθομεν καὶ ἐπανορθοῦντες, ἀεὶ οἰόμενοί τι πέρας εὑρήσειν περὶ τὰ ἐν τοῖς συμβολαίοις κακουργήματα καὶ περὶ ἃ νυνδὴ ἐγὼ ἔλεγον, ἀγνοοῦντες ὅτι τῷ ὄντι ὥσπερ Ὕδραν τέμνουσιν.
"Do not be angry, then; for such men are indeed the most charming of all, legislating as we have just described and amending, always thinking they will find some limit to frauds in contracts and the other things I just mentioned, not knowing that they are in truth cutting off the heads of a Hydra."