§4.421ἀλλʼ ἡμᾶς μὴ οὕτω νουθέτει· ὡς, ἄν σοι πειθώμεθα, οὔτε ὁ γεωργὸς γεωργὸς ἔσται οὔτε ὁ κεραμεὺς κεραμεὺς οὔτε ἄλλος οὐδεὶς οὐδὲν ἔχων σχῆμα ἐξ ὧν πόλις γίγνεται.
But do not advise us in this way; since, if we obey you, neither will the farmer be a farmer, nor the potter a potter, nor will anyone else have any status from which a city is constituted.
ἀλλὰ τῶν μὲν ἄλλων ἐλάττων λόγος· νευρορράφοι γὰρ φαῦλοι γενόμενοι καὶ διαφθαρέντες καὶ προσποιησάμενοι εἶναι μὴ ὄντες πόλει οὐδὲν δεινόν, φύλακες δὲ νόμων τε καὶ πόλεως μὴ ὄντες ἀλλὰ δοκοῦντες ὁρᾷς δὴ ὅτι πᾶσαν ἄρδην πόλιν ἀπολλύασιν, καὶ αὖ τοῦ εὖ οἰκεῖν καὶ εὐδαιμονεῖν μόνοι τὸν καιρὸν ἔχουσιν.
However, of the others there is less account; for if cobblers become worthless and ruined, and pretend to be what they are not, it is nothing terrible for a city; but if the guardians of the laws and of the city are not guardians but only seem to be, you surely see that they utterly ruin the whole city, while they alone have the opportunity for its good government and happiness.
εἰ μὲν οὖν ἡμεῖς μὲν φύλακας ὡς ἀληθῶς ποιοῦμεν ἥκιστα κακούργους τῆς πόλεως, ὁ δʼ ἐκεῖνο λέγων γεωργούς τινας καὶ ὥσπερ ἐν πανηγύρει ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐν πόλει ἑστιάτορας εὐδαίμονας, ἄλλο ἄν τι ἢ πόλιν λέγοι.
If, then, we are making guardians who are truly least harmful to the city, while the one who says that is talking about some farmers and, as if at a festival but not in a city, happy banqueters, he would be speaking of something other than a city.
σκεπτέον οὖν πότερον πρὸς τοῦτο βλέποντες τοὺς φύλακας καθιστῶμεν, ὅπως ὅτι πλείστη αὐτοῖς εὐδαιμονία ἐγγενήσεται, ἢ τοῦτο μὲν εἰς τὴν πόλιν ὅλην βλέποντας θεατέον εἰ ἐκείνῃ ἐγγίγνεται, τοὺς δʼ ἐπικούρους τούτους καὶ τοὺς φύλακας ἐκεῖνο ἀναγκαστέον ποιεῖν καὶ πειστέον, ὅπως ὅτι ἄριστοι δημιουργοὶ τοῦ ἑαυτῶν ἔργου ἔσονται, καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους ἅπαντας ὡσαύτως, καὶ οὕτω συμπάσης τῆς πόλεως αὐξανομένης καὶ καλῶς οἰκιζομένης ἐατέον ὅπως ἑκάστοις τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἡ φύσις ἀποδίδωσι τοῦ μεταλαμβάνειν εὐδαιμονίας.
We must examine, therefore, whether we appoint the guardians looking to this, that as much happiness as possible shall be in them, or whether, looking to the whole city, we must see if this happiness arises in it, and these auxiliaries and guardians must be compelled and persuaded to do this very thing, so that they will be the best possible craftsmen of their own work, and all the others likewise, and thus, as the entire city grows and is beautifully established, we must allow each class to share in such happiness as nature yields to them.
ἀλλʼ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, καλῶς μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν. ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ τὸ τούτου ἀδελφὸν δόξω σοι μετρίως λέγειν; τί μάλιστα; τοὺς ἄλλους αὖ δημιουργοὺς σκόπει εἰ τάδε διαφθείρει, ὥστε καὶ κακοὺς γίγνεσθαι. τὰ ποῖα δὴ ταῦτα; πλοῦτος, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ πενία. πῶς δή; ὧδε.
"Well," he said, "you seem to me to speak well." "Will I then," I said, "seem to you to speak reasonably on what is sister to this?" "What in particular?" "Look at the other craftsmen in turn, whether these things ruin them, so as to make them bad." "What sort of things are these?" "Wealth," I said, "and poverty." "How so?" "In this way.
πλουτήσας χυτρεὺς δοκεῖ σοι ἔτʼ ἐθελήσειν ἐπιμελεῖσθαι τῆς τέχνης; οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη.
Do you think a potter who has become rich will still be willing to attend to his art?" "By no means," he said.
Ἀργὸς δὲ καὶ ἀμελὴς γενήσεται μᾶλλον αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ; πολύ γε. οὐκοῦν κακίων χυτρεὺς γίγνεται; καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, πολύ.
"And will he become lazier and more negligent than his former self?" "Much more so." "Does he not, then, become a worse potter?" "This too, much more so," he said.
καὶ μὴν καὶ ὄργανά γε μὴ ἔχων παρέχεσθαι ὑπὸ πενίας ἤ τι ἄλλο τῶν εἰς τὴν τέχνην τά τε ἔργα πονηρότερα ἐργάσεται καὶ τοὺς ὑεῖς ἢ ἄλλους οὓς ἂν διδάσκῃ χείρους δημιουργοὺς διδάξεται. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ὑπʼ ἀμφοτέρων δή, πενίας τε καὶ πλούτου, χείρω μὲν τὰ τῶν τεχνῶν ἔργα, χείρους δὲ αὐτοί. φαίνεται. ἕτερα δή, ὡς ἔοικε, τοῖς φύλαξιν ηὑρήκαμεν, ἃ παντὶ τρόπῳ φυλακτέον ὅπως μήποτε αὐτοὺς λήσει εἰς τὴν πόλιν παραδύντα. τὰ ποῖα ταῦτα; §4.422πλοῦτός τε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ πενία· ὡς τοῦ μὲν τρυφὴν καὶ ἀργίαν καὶ νεωτερισμὸν ἐμποιοῦντος, τῆς δὲ ἀνελευθερίαν καὶ κακοεργίαν πρὸς τῷ νεωτερισμῷ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"And further, if through poverty he is unable to provide himself with tools or anything else necessary for his art, he will produce inferior works, and he will teach his sons or others whom he instructs to be worse craftsmen." "How could he not?" "By both, then, poverty and wealth, the products of the arts become worse, and the craftsmen themselves become worse." "It appears so." "We have then, as it seems, found other things for the guardians, which they must guard against in every way so that they never slip into the city without their notice." "What sort of things are these?" "Wealth," I said, "and poverty; since the one produces luxury, idleness, and revolution, and the other meanness and bad workmanship, in addition to revolution." "Most certainly," he said.
τόδε μέντοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, σκόπει, πῶς ἡμῖν ἡ πόλις οἵα τʼ ἔσται πολεμεῖν, ἐπειδὰν χρήματα μὴ κεκτημένη ᾖ, ἄλλως τε κἂν πρὸς μεγάλην τε καὶ πλουσίαν ἀναγκασθῇ πολεμεῖν. δῆλον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι πρὸς μὲν μίαν χαλεπώτερον, πρὸς δὲ δύο τοιαύτας ῥᾷον. πῶς εἶπες; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"However, Socrates, consider this: how our city will be able to wage war, when it possesses no money, especially if it is forced to wage war against a great and wealthy city." "It is clear," I said, "that against one such city it is more difficult, but against two such cities it is easier." "How do you mean?" he said.
πρῶτον μέν που, εἶπον, ἐὰν δέῃ μάχεσθαι, ἆρα οὐ πλουσίοις ἀνδράσι μαχοῦνται αὐτοὶ ὄντες πολέμου ἀθληταί; ναὶ τοῦτό γε, ἔφη.
"First of all, I suppose," I said, "if they must fight, will they not, being themselves athletes of war, fight against rich men?" "Yes, indeed," he said.
τί οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε; εἷς πύκτης ὡς οἷόν τε κάλλιστα ἐπὶ τοῦτο παρεσκευασμένος δυοῖν μὴ πύκταιν, πλουσίοιν δὲ καὶ πιόνοιν, οὐκ ἂν δοκεῖ σοι ῥᾳδίως μάχεσθαι; οὐκ ἂν ἴσως, ἔφη, ἅμα γε.
"What then, Adeimantus," I said, "does it not seem to you that one boxer prepared in the best possible way for this would easily fight against two non-boxers who are rich and fat?" "Perhaps not at the same time," he said.
οὐδʼ εἰ ἐξείη, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὑποφεύγοντι τὸν πρότερον ἀεὶ προσφερόμενον ἀναστρέφοντα κρούειν, καὶ τοῦτο ποιοῖ πολλάκις ἐν ἡλίῳ τε καὶ πνίγει;
"Not even if it were permitted to him," I said, "by fleeing, to turn back and strike the one who is always coming up first, and if he did this repeatedly in the sun and stifling heat?
ἆρά γε οὐ καὶ πλείους χειρώσαιτʼ ἂν τοιούτους ὁ τοιοῦτος; ἀμέλει, ἔφη, οὐδὲν ἂν γένοιτο θαυμαστόν. ἀλλʼ οὐκ οἴει πυκτικῆς πλέον μετέχειν τοὺς πλουσίους ἐπιστήμῃ τε καὶ ἐμπειρίᾳ ἢ πολεμικῆς; ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
Would not such a person master even more of them?" "Certainly," he said, "that would be nothing surprising." "But do you not think that the rich have a greater share of knowledge and experience in boxing than in the art of war?" "I do," he said.
ῥᾳδίως ἄρα ἡμῖν οἱ ἀθληταὶ ἐκ τῶν εἰκότων διπλασίοις τε καὶ τριπλασίοις αὑτῶν μαχοῦνται. συγχωρήσομαί σοι, ἔφη· δοκεῖς γάρ μοι ὀρθῶς λέγειν. τί δʼ ἂν πρεσβείαν πέμψαντες εἰς τὴν ἑτέραν πόλιν τἀληθῆ εἴπωσιν, ὅτι
ἡμεῖς μὲν οὐδὲν χρυσίῳ οὐδʼ ἀργυρίῳ χρώμεθα, οὐδʼ ἡμῖν θέμις, ὑμῖν δέ· συμπολεμήσαντες οὖν μεθʼ ἡμῶν ἔχετε τὰ τῶν ἑτέρων; οἴει τινὰς ἀκούσαντας ταῦτα αἱρήσεσθαι κυσὶ πολεμεῖν στερεοῖς τε καὶ ἰσχνοῖς μᾶλλον ἢ μετὰ κυνῶν προβάτοις πίοσί τε καὶ ἁπαλοῖς; οὔ μοι δοκεῖ. ἀλλʼ ἐὰν εἰς μίαν, ἔφη, πόλιν συναθροισθῇ τὰ τῶν ἄλλων χρήματα, ὅρα μὴ κίνδυνον φέρῃ τῇ μὴ πλουτούσῃ. εὐδαίμων εἶ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὅτι οἴει ἄξιον εἶναι ἄλλην τινὰ προσειπεῖν πόλιν ἢ τὴν τοιαύτην οἵαν ἡμεῖς κατεσκευάζομεν. ἀλλὰ τί μήν; ἔφη.
"Easily, then, in all probability, our athletes will fight against twice and three times their own number." "I will agree with you," he said, "for you seem to me to speak correctly." "And what if, sending an embassy to the other city, they should say the truth: 'We do not make use of gold or silver, nor is it lawful for us, but it is for you; fight with us, then, and have the possessions of the others.' Do you think that anyone hearing this would choose to fight against tough and lean dogs, rather than to fight, along with dogs, against fat and tender sheep?" "I think not." "But," he said, "if the wealth of the others is gathered together into one city, see to it that it does not bring danger to the one that is not wealthy." "You are a happy man," I said, "to think that it is fitting to call any other city 'a city' than the kind of one we are establishing." "But why indeed?" he said.
μειζόνως, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, χρὴ προσαγορεύειν τὰς ἄλλας· ἑκάστη γὰρ αὐτῶν πόλεις εἰσὶ πάμπολλαι ἀλλʼ οὐ πόλις, τὸ τῶν παιζόντων.
"To the others," I said, "we must give a greater title; for each of them is not 'a city' but very many 'cities,' as the joke goes."