§3.388ὀρθῶς ἄρʼ ἂν ἐξαιροῖμεν τοὺς θρήνους τῶν ὀνομαστῶν ἀνδρῶν, γυναιξὶ δὲ ἀποδιδοῖμεν, καὶ οὐδὲ ταύταις σπουδαίαις, καὶ ὅσοι κακοὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν, ἵνα ἡμῖν δυσχεραίνωσιν ὅμοια τούτοις ποιεῖν οὓς δή φαμεν ἐπὶ φυλακῇ τῆς χώρας τρέφειν. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
"Rightly then would we remove the lamentations of famous men, and hand them over to women, and not even to serious ones, and to those of men who are bad, so that those whom we say we are breeding for the guardianship of the country may disdain to do things like these." "Rightly," he said.
πάλιν δὴ Ὁμήρου τε δεησόμεθα καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ποιητῶν μὴ ποιεῖν Ἀχιλλέα θεᾶς παῖδα—
"
ἄλλοτʼ ἐπὶ πλευρᾶς κατακείμενον, ἄλλοτε δʼ αὖτε
ὕπτιον, ἄλλοτε δὲ πρηνῆ,
"
"τοτὲ δʼ ὀρθὸν ἀναστάντα πλωΐζοντʼ ἀλύοντʼ ἐπὶ θῖνʼ ἁλὸς ἀτρυγέτοιο,"
μηδὲ
"ἀμφοτέραισιν χερσὶν ἑλόντα κόνιν αἰθαλόεσσαν χευάμενον κὰκ κεφαλῆς"
, μηδὲ ἄλλα κλαίοντά τε καὶ ὀδυρόμενον ὅσα καὶ οἷα ἐκεῖνος ἐποίησε, μηδὲ Πρίαμον ἐγγὺς θεῶν γεγονότα λιτανεύοντά τε καὶ—
"
κυλινδόμενον κατὰ κόπρον,
ἐξονομακλήδην ὀνομάζοντʼ ἄνδρα ἕκαστον.
"Again, then, we shall ask Homer and the other poets not to make Achilles, the son of a goddess, "lying now on his side, and now again on his back, and now on his face, "'and then standing upright and wandering distracted along the shore of the barren sea,' nor 'taking with both hands the dark dust and pouring it down over his head,' nor crying and lamenting in all the other ways and to the extent that poet made him do; nor Priam, who was near to the gods, entreating and "rolling in the dung, calling upon each man by name.
"
πολὺ δʼ ἔτι τούτων μᾶλλον δεησόμεθα μήτοι θεούς γε ποιεῖν ὀδυρομένους καὶ λέγοντας—
"
ὤμοι ἐγὼ δειλή, ὤμοι δυσαριστοτόκεια·
"And much more still than these shall we ask them not to make the gods lamenting and saying, "Ah, wretched me, ah, unhappy mother of the best of sons!
"
εἰ δʼ οὖν θεούς, μήτοι τόν γε μέγιστον τῶν θεῶν τολμῆσαι οὕτως ἀνομοίως μιμήσασθαι, ὥστε
"
ὢ πόποι, φάναι, ἦ φίλον ἄνδρα διωκόμενον περὶ ἄστυ
ὀφθαλμοῖσιν ὁρῶμαι, ἐμὸν δʼ ὀλοφύρεται ἦτορ· "
καὶ—
"
αἲ αἲ ἐγών, ὅ τέ μοι Σαρπηδόνα φίλτατον ἀνδρῶν
"
"
μοῖρʼ ὑπὸ Πατρόκλοιο Μενοιτιάδαο δαμῆναι.
"But if they do represent gods, at least not to dare to imitate the greatest of the gods so unworthily as to make him say, "Ah, look, with my eyes I behold a beloved man being pursued around the city, and my heart laments for him; "and— "Ah, alas for me, that Sarpedon, dearest of men to me, "" is fated to be subdued under the hands of Patroclus, son of Menoetius.
"
εἰ γάρ, ὦ φίλε Ἀδείμαντε, τὰ τοιαῦτα ἡμῖν οἱ νέοι σπουδῇ ἀκούοιεν καὶ μὴ καταγελῷεν ὡς ἀναξίως λεγομένων, σχολῇ ἂν ἑαυτόν γέ τις ἄνθρωπον ὄντα ἀνάξιον ἡγήσαιτο τούτων καὶ ἐπιπλήξειεν, εἰ καὶ ἐπίοι αὐτῷ τι τοιοῦτον ἢ λέγειν ἢ ποιεῖν, ἀλλʼ οὐδὲν αἰσχυνόμενος οὐδὲ καρτερῶν πολλοὺς ἐπὶ σμικροῖσιν παθήμασιν θρήνους ἂν ᾄδοι καὶ ὀδυρμούς. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, λέγεις.
"For if, my dear Adeimantus, our young men should hear such things seriously and not laugh at them as being said unworthily, with difficulty would anyone, being a human, deem himself unworthy of these things and rebuke himself, if any such thing should occur to him either to say or to do, but without any shame or endurance he would sing many lamentations and wailings over small sufferings." "You speak most truly," he said.
δεῖ δέ γε οὔχ, ὡς ἄρτι ἡμῖν ὁ λόγος ἐσήμαινεν· ᾧ πειστέον, ἕως ἄν τις ἡμᾶς ἄλλῳ καλλίονι πείσῃ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν δεῖ. ἀλλὰ μὴν οὐδὲ φιλογέλωτάς γε δεῖ εἶναι.
"But indeed it must not be so, as our argument just now indicated; which we must obey, until someone persuades us with another, better one." "For indeed it must not." "Moreover, they must not be lovers of laughter.
σχεδὸν γὰρ ὅταν τις ἐφιῇ ἰσχυρῷ γέλωτι, ἰσχυρὰν καὶ μεταβολὴν ζητεῖ τὸ τοιοῦτον. δοκεῖ μοι, ἔφη.
For almost whenever anyone abandons himself to violent laughter, such a thing seeks a violent change." "It seems so to me," he said.
§3.389οὔτε ἄρα ἀνθρώπους ἀξίους λόγου κρατουμένους ὑπὸ γέλωτος ἄν τις ποιῇ, ἀποδεκτέον, πολὺ δὲ ἧττον, ἐὰν θεούς. πολὺ μέντοι, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Therefore, if anyone represents men worthy of respect as being overcome by laughter, it must not be accepted, and much less so if they represent gods." "Much less indeed," he said.
οὐκοῦν Ὁμήρου οὐδὲ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀποδεξόμεθα περὶ θεῶν—
"
ἄσβεστος δʼ ἄρʼ ἐνῶρτο γέλως μακάρεσσι θεοῖσιν,
ὡς ἴδον Ἥφαιστον διὰ δώματα ποιπνύοντα·
"Then we shall not accept such things from Homer concerning the gods— "And unquenchable laughter arose among the blessed gods, when they saw Hephaestus bustling through the palace.
"
οὐκ ἀποδεκτέον κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον. εἰ σύ, ἔφη, βούλει ἐμὸν τιθέναι· οὐ γὰρ οὖν δὴ ἀποδεκτέον. ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ ἀλήθειάν γε περὶ πολλοῦ ποιητέον.
"It is not to be accepted, according to your argument." "If you," he said, "wish to make it mine; for indeed it must not be accepted." "Moreover, truth must be highly valued.
εἰ γὰρ ὀρθῶς ἐλέγομεν ἄρτι, καὶ τῷ ὄντι θεοῖσι μὲν ἄχρηστον ψεῦδος, ἀνθρώποις δὲ χρήσιμον ὡς ἐν φαρμάκου εἴδει, δῆλον ὅτι τό γε τοιοῦτον ἰατροῖς δοτέον, ἰδιώταις δὲ οὐχ ἁπτέον. δῆλον, ἔφη.
For if we were speaking correctly just now, and lie is indeed useless to gods, but useful to humans as a form of medicine, it is clear that such a thing must be granted to physicians, but must not be touched by private individuals." "Clear," he said.
τοῖς ἄρχουσιν δὴ τῆς πόλεως, εἴπερ τισὶν ἄλλοις, προσήκει ψεύδεσθαι ἢ πολεμίων ἢ πολιτῶν ἕνεκα ἐπʼ ὠφελίᾳ τῆς πόλεως, τοῖς δὲ ἄλλοις πᾶσιν οὐχ ἁπτέον τοῦ τοιούτου· ἀλλὰ πρός γε δὴ τοὺς τοιούτους ἄρχοντας ἰδιώτῃ ψεύσασθαι ταὐτὸν καὶ μεῖζον ἁμάρτημα φήσομεν ἢ κάμνοντι πρὸς ἰατρὸν ἢ ἀσκοῦντι πρὸς παιδοτρίβην περὶ τῶν τοῦ αὑτοῦ σώματος παθημάτων μὴ τἀληθῆ λέγειν, ἢ πρὸς κυβερνήτην περὶ τῆς νεώς τε καὶ τῶν ναυτῶν μὴ τὰ ὄντα λέγοντι ὅπως ἢ αὐτὸς ἤ τις τῶν συνναυτῶν πράξεως ἔχει. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
"It belongs, then, to the rulers of the city, if to anyone else, to lie for the benefit of the city because of enemies or citizens, but all the others must not touch such a thing; but for a private person to lie to such rulers, we shall say is an equal and greater error than for a sick man not to speak the truth to a physician, or for an athlete to a trainer concerning the sufferings of his own body, or to a pilot concerning the ship and the sailors, not telling the facts of how he himself or any of his fellow sailors is faring." "Most true," he said.
ἂν ἄρʼ ἄλλον τινὰ λαμβάνῃ ψευδόμενον ἐν τῇ πόλει—
"
τῶν οἳ δημιοεργοὶ ἔασι,
μάντιν ἢ ἰητῆρα κακῶν ἢ τέκτονα δούρων,
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κολάσει ὡς ἐπιτήδευμα εἰσάγοντα πόλεως ὥσπερ νεὼς ἀνατρεπτικόν τε καὶ ὀλέθριον. ἐάνπερ, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἐπί γε λόγῳ ἔργα τελῆται. τί δέ;
"If then he catches anyone else lying in the city— "of those who are craftsmen, a prophet or a healer of ills or a builder of timbers, "he will punish him as introducing a practice destructive and ruinous to the city, just like to a ship." "If indeed," he said, "deeds are completed following the argument." "What then?
σωφροσύνης ἆρα οὐ δεήσει ἡμῖν τοῖς νεανίαις; πῶς δʼ οὔ; σωφροσύνης δὲ ὡς πλήθει οὐ τὰ τοιάδε μέγιστα, ἀρχόντων μὲν ὑπηκόους εἶναι, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἄρχοντας τῶν περὶ πότους καὶ ἀφροδίσια καὶ περὶ ἐδωδὰς ἡδονῶν; ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. τὰ δὴ τοιάδε φήσομεν οἶμαι καλῶς λέγεσθαι, οἷα καὶ Ὁμήρῳ Διομήδης λέγει—
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τέττα, σιωπῇ ἧσο, ἐμῷ δʼ ἐπιπείθεο μύθῳ,
"
καὶ τὰ τούτων ἐχόμενα, τὰ—
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ἴσαν μένεα πνείοντες Ἀχαιοί,
σιγῇ δειδιότες σημάντορας,
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καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα τοιαῦτα.
Will we not need temperance for our young men?" "How not?" "And for the multitude, are not the greatest things of temperance such as these: to be obedient to rulers, and themselves to rule over the pleasures of drinking, sex, and eating?" "It seems so to me." "We shall say then, I think, that such things are well said, as Diomedes says to Homer— "Friend, sit in silence, and obey my word, "and the things connected with these, "The Achaeans marched breathing strength, in silence fearing their leaders, "and all other such things."