§2.363λέγουσι δέ που καὶ παρακελεύονται πατέρες τε ὑέσιν, καὶ πάντες οἱ τινῶν κηδόμενοι, ὡς χρὴ δίκαιον εἶναι, οὐκ αὐτὸ δικαιοσύνην ἐπαινοῦντες ἀλλὰ τὰς ἀπʼ αὐτῆς εὐδοκιμήσεις, ἵνα δοκοῦντι δικαίῳ εἶναι γίγνηται ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης ἀρχαί τε καὶ γάμοι καὶ ὅσαπερ Γλαύκων διῆλθεν ἄρτι, ἀπὸ τοῦ εὐδοκιμεῖν ὄντα τῷ δικαίῳ.
Parents, I suppose, and all those who care for anyone, speak and exhort, saying that one must be just, not praising justice itself but the reputations arising from it, so that to the one who is thought to be just, there may come from this reputation public offices and marriages and all the things Glaucon just now went through, which come to the just man from having a good reputation.
ἐπὶ πλέον δὲ οὗτοι τὰ τῶν δοξῶν λέγουσιν.
But these people carry the matter of reputations even further.
τὰς γὰρ παρὰ θεῶν εὐδοκιμήσεις ἐμβάλλοντες ἄφθονα ἔχουσι λέγειν ἀγαθά, τοῖς ὁσίοις ἅ φασι θεοὺς διδόναι· ὥσπερ ὁ γενναῖος Ἡσίοδός τε καὶ Ὅμηρός φασιν, ὁ μὲν τὰς δρῦς τοῖς δικαίοις τοὺς θεοὺς ποιεῖν
"ἄκρας μέν τε φέρειν βαλάνους, μέσσας δὲ μελίσσας· εἰροπόκοι δʼ ὄιες, φησίν, μαλλοῖς καταβεβρίθασι"
, καὶ ἄλλα δὴ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ τούτων ἐχόμενα.
For by throwing in the reputations from the gods, they have a bounty of good things to tell, which they say the gods give to the pious; just as the noble Hesiod and Homer say. The former says that for the just the gods make the oaks "bear acorns at their tops, and bees in their middles; and the fleecy sheep," he says, "are weighed down with wool," and indeed many other good things connected with these.
παραπλήσια δὲ καὶ ὁ ἕτερος· "ὥς τέ τευ"
γάρ φησιν
"
ἢ βασιλῆος ἀμύμονος ὅς τε θεουδὴς
εὐδικίας ἀνέχῃσι, φέρῃσι δὲ γαῖα μέλαινα
"
"
πυροὺς καὶ κριθάς, βρίθῃσι δὲ δένδρεα καρπῷ,
τίκτῃ δʼ ἔμπεδα μῆλα, θάλασσα δὲ παρέχῃ ἰχθῦς. "
Μουσαῖος δὲ τούτων νεανικώτερα τἀγαθὰ καὶ ὁ ὑὸς αὐτοῦ παρὰ θεῶν διδόασιν τοῖς δικαίοις·
And the other says very similar things; for he says, "As of some blameless king, who, fearing the gods, upholds justice, and the dark earth bears wheat and barley, and the trees are heavy with fruit, and the flocks bring forth without fail, and the sea provides fish." And Musaeus and his son give more vigorous goods than these from the gods to the just.
εἰς Ἅιδου γὰρ ἀγαγόντες τῷ λόγῳ καὶ κατακλίναντες καὶ συμπόσιον τῶν ὁσίων κατασκευάσαντες ἐστεφανωμένους ποιοῦσιν τὸν ἅπαντα χρόνον ἤδη διάγειν μεθύοντας, ἡγησάμενοι κάλλιστον ἀρετῆς μισθὸν μέθην αἰώνιον.
For leading them in their account into Hades, and reclining them and preparing a banquet of the pious, they make them spend all their time henceforth crowned and drunk, having deemed eternal drunkenness to be the finest reward of virtue.
οἱ δʼ ἔτι τούτων μακροτέρους ἀποτείνουσιν μισθοὺς παρὰ θεῶν· παῖδας γὰρ παίδων φασὶ καὶ γένος κατόπισθεν λείπεσθαι τοῦ ὁσίου καὶ εὐόρκου.
And others stretch the rewards from the gods even further than these; for they say that children's children and a generation behind are left by the pious and oath-keeping man.
ταῦτα δὴ καὶ ἄλλα τοιαῦτα ἐγκωμιάζουσιν δικαιοσύνην·
With these and other such things they praise justice.
τοὺς δὲ ἀνοσίους αὖ καὶ ἀδίκους εἰς πηλόν τινα κατορύττουσιν ἐν Ἅιδου καὶ κοσκίνῳ ὕδωρ ἀναγκάζουσι φέρειν, ἔτι τε ζῶντας εἰς κακὰς δόξας ἄγοντες, ἅπερ Γλαύκων περὶ τῶν δικαίων δοξαζομένων δὲ ἀδίκων διῆλθε τιμωρήματα, ταῦτα περὶ τῶν ἀδίκων λέγουσιν, ἄλλα δὲ οὐκ ἔχουσιν.
But the impious and unjust, in turn, they bury in some mud in Hades and compel them to carry water in a sieve; and while they are still alive they bring them into bad reputations, and the punishments which Glaucon went through concerning the just who are thought to be unjust, these they say about the unjust, and they have no others.
ὁ μὲν οὖν ἔπαινος καὶ ὁ ψόγος οὗτος ἑκατέρων.
Such, then, is the praise and the censure of each.
§2.364πρὸς δὲ τούτοις σκέψαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἄλλο αὖ εἶδος λόγων περὶ δικαιοσύνης τε καὶ ἀδικίας ἰδίᾳ τε λεγόμενον καὶ ὑπὸ ποιητῶν.
In addition to these, Socrates, consider another kind of speech about justice and injustice, spoken both in private and by poets.
πάντες γὰρ ἐξ ἑνὸς στόματος ὑμνοῦσιν ὡς καλὸν μὲν ἡ σωφροσύνη τε καὶ δικαιοσύνη, χαλεπὸν μέντοι καὶ ἐπίπονον, ἀκολασία δὲ καὶ ἀδικία ἡδὺ μὲν καὶ εὐπετὲς κτήσασθαι, δόξῃ δὲ μόνον καὶ νόμῳ αἰσχρόν·
For they all with one voice sing that self-control and justice are fine, to be sure, but difficult and laborious, while self-indulgence and injustice are pleasant and easy to acquire, and are shameful only by reputation and convention.
λυσιτελέστερα δὲ τῶν δικαίων τὰ ἄδικα ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πλῆθος λέγουσι, καὶ πονηροὺς πλουσίους καὶ ἄλλας δυνάμεις ἔχοντας εὐδαιμονίζειν καὶ τιμᾶν εὐχερῶς ἐθέλουσιν δημοσίᾳ τε καὶ ἰδίᾳ, τοὺς δὲ ἀτιμάζειν καὶ ὑπερορᾶν, οἳ ἄν πῃ ἀσθενεῖς τε καὶ πένητες ὦσιν, ὁμολογοῦντες αὐτοὺς ἀμείνους εἶναι τῶν ἑτέρων.
And they say that unjust things are for the most part more profitable than just things, and they are readily willing to call happy and to honor, both publicly and privately, wicked men who are rich and have other powers, while they dishonor and overlook those who are weak and poor, though acknowledging that these latter are better than the former.
τούτων δὲ πάντων οἱ περὶ θεῶν τε λόγοι καὶ ἀρετῆς θαυμασιώτατοι λέγονται, ὡς ἄρα καὶ θεοὶ πολλοῖς μὲν ἀγαθοῖς δυστυχίας τε καὶ βίον κακὸν ἔνειμαν, τοῖς δʼ ἐναντίοις ἐναντίαν μοῖραν.
But of all these, the stories told about the gods and virtue are the most amazing, to the effect that the gods, it seems, have assigned misfortunes and a bad life to many good men, and the opposite fate to their opposites.
ἀγύρται δὲ καὶ μάντεις ἐπὶ πλουσίων θύρας ἰόντες πείθουσιν ὡς ἔστι παρὰ σφίσι δύναμις ἐκ θεῶν ποριζομένη θυσίαις τε καὶ ἐπῳδαῖς, εἴτε τι ἀδίκημά του γέγονεν αὐτοῦ ἢ προγόνων, ἀκεῖσθαι μεθʼ ἡδονῶν τε καὶ ἑορτῶν, ἐάν τέ τινα ἐχθρὸν πημῆναι ἐθέλῃ, μετὰ σμικρῶν δαπανῶν ὁμοίως δίκαιον ἀδίκῳ βλάψει ἐπαγωγαῖς τισιν καὶ καταδέσμοις, τοὺς θεούς, ὥς φασιν, πείθοντές σφισιν ὑπηρετεῖν.
And begging priests and prophets go to the doors of the rich and persuade them that there is a power in their possession provided by the gods through sacrifices and incantations, so that if any injustice has been committed by someone himself or his ancestors, it can be expiated with pleasures and festivals; and if he wants to harm some enemy, with small expenses he will harm just and unjust alike by certain incantations and binding spells, persuading the gods, as they say, to serve them.
τούτοις δὲ πᾶσιν τοῖς λόγοις μάρτυρας ποιητὰς ἐπάγονται οἱ μὲν κακίας πέρι, εὐπετείας διδόντες, ὡς
"
τὴν μὲν κακότητα καὶ ἰλαδὸν ἔστιν ἑλέσθαι
"
"
ῥηϊδίως· λείη μὲν ὁδός, μάλα δʼ ἐγγύθι ναίει· τῆς δʼ ἀρετῆς ἱδρῶτα θεοὶ προπάροιθεν ἔθηκαν
"
καί τινα ὁδὸν μακράν τε καὶ τραχεῖαν καὶ ἀνάντη· οἱ δὲ τῆς τῶν θεῶν ὑπʼ ἀνθρώπων παραγωγῆς τὸν Ὅμηρον μαρτύρονται, ὅτι καὶ ἐκεῖνος εἶπεν—
"
λιστοὶ δέ τε καὶ θεοὶ αὐτοί,
καὶ τοὺς μὲν θυσίαισι καὶ εὐχωλαῖς ἀγαναῖσιν
"
"
λοιβῇ τε κνίσῃ τε παρατρωπῶσʼ ἄνθρωποι
λισσόμενοι, ὅτε κέν τις ὑπερβήῃ καὶ ἁμάρτῃ. "
To all these arguments they bring forward poets as witnesses, some on the side of vice, granting it easiness, as "vice indeed one can choose in heaps easily; smooth is the way, and she dwells very near; but before virtue the gods have set sweat" and a certain long and rough and steep road; while others call Homer to witness for the turning aside of the gods by men, because he too said: "The gods themselves are turning-aside, and men turn them aside with sacrifices and gentle prayers, with libations and burnt offering, supplicating them whenever anyone transgresses and errs."