§10.598τὸν μὲν δὴ μιμητὴν ὡμολογήκαμεν.
"We have agreed, then, on the imitator.
εἰπὲ δέ μοι περὶ τοῦ ζωγράφου τόδε· πότερα ἐκεῖνο αὐτὸ τὸ ἐν τῇ φύσει ἕκαστον δοκεῖ σοι ἐπιχειρεῖν μιμεῖσθαι ἢ τὰ τῶν δημιουργῶν ἔργα; τὰ τῶν δημιουργῶν, ἔφη.
But tell me this about the painter: does he seem to you to attempt to imitate each of those things itself in nature, or the works of the craftsmen?" "The works of the craftsmen," he said.
ἆρα οἷα ἔστιν ἢ οἷα φαίνεται;
"As they are, or as they appear?
τοῦτο γὰρ ἔτι διόρισον. πῶς λέγεις; ἔφη.
For define this further." "How do you mean?" he said.
ὧδε· κλίνη, ἐάντε ἐκ πλαγίου αὐτὴν θεᾷ ἐάντε καταντικρὺ ἢ ὁπῃοῦν, μή τι διαφέρει αὐτὴ ἑαυτῆς, ἢ διαφέρει μὲν οὐδέν, φαίνεται δὲ ἀλλοία;
"Like this: does a couch, if you look at it from the side or from the front or in any other way, differ at all from itself? Or does it not differ at all, but only appear different?
καὶ τἆλλα ὡσαύτως; οὕτως, ἔφη· φαίνεται, διαφέρει δʼ οὐδέν. τοῦτο δὴ αὐτὸ σκόπει· πρὸς πότερον ἡ γραφικὴ πεποίηται περὶ ἕκαστον;
And so too with other things?" "Thus," he said: "it appears different, but differs not at all." "Consider this very thing: toward which of the two has painting been made in each case?
πότερα πρὸς τὸ ὄν, ὡς ἔχει, μιμήσασθαι, ἢ πρὸς τὸ φαινόμενον, ὡς φαίνεται, φαντάσματος ἢ ἀληθείας οὖσα μίμησις; φαντάσματος, ἔφη.
To imitate what is, as it is, or what appears, as it appears, being an imitation of an appearance or of truth?" "Of an appearance," he said.
πόρρω ἄρα που τοῦ ἀληθοῦς ἡ μιμητική ἐστιν καί, ὡς ἔοικεν, διὰ τοῦτο πάντα ἀπεργάζεται, ὅτι σμικρόν τι ἑκάστου ἐφάπτεται, καὶ τοῦτο εἴδωλον.
"Then the art of imitation is far indeed from the truth, and, as it seems, for this reason it produces everything, because it touches only a small part of each thing, and that an image.
οἷον ὁ ζωγράφος, φαμέν, ζωγραφήσει ἡμῖν σκυτοτόμον, τέκτονα, τοὺς ἄλλους δημιουργούς, περὶ οὐδενὸς τούτων ἐπαΐων τῶν τεχνῶν· ἀλλʼ ὅμως παῖδάς γε καὶ ἄφρονας ἀνθρώπους, εἰ ἀγαθὸς εἴη ζωγράφος, γράψας ἂν τέκτονα καὶ πόρρωθεν ἐπιδεικνὺς ἐξαπατῷ ἂν τῷ δοκεῖν ὡς ἀληθῶς τέκτονα εἶναι. τί δʼ οὔ; ἀλλὰ γὰρ οἶμαι ὦ φίλε, τόδε δεῖ περὶ πάντων τῶν τοιούτων διανοεῖσθαι· ἐπειδάν τις ἡμῖν ἀπαγγέλλῃ περί του, ὡς ἐνέτυχεν ἀνθρώπῳ πάσας ἐπισταμένῳ τὰς δημιουργίας καὶ τἆλλα πάντα ὅσα εἷς ἕκαστος οἶδεν, οὐδὲν ὅτι οὐχὶ ἀκριβέστερον ὁτουοῦν ἐπισταμένῳ, ὑπολαμβάνειν δεῖ τῷ τοιούτῳ ὅτι εὐήθης τις ἄνθρωπος, καί, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐντυχὼν γόητί τινι καὶ μιμητῇ ἐξηπατήθη, ὥστε ἔδοξεν αὐτῷ πάσσοφος εἶναι, διὰ τὸ αὐτὸς μὴ οἷός τʼ εἶναι ἐπιστήμην καὶ ἀνεπιστημοσύνην καὶ μίμησιν ἐξετάσαι. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
For example, the painter, we say, will paint for us a shoemaker, a carpenter, and other craftsmen, though knowing nothing of these arts; but nevertheless, if he were a good painter, by painting a carpenter and showing him from a distance, he would deceive children and foolish men into thinking that he is truly a carpenter." "Why not?" "But indeed, my friend, I think we must keep this in mind about all such things: when anyone reports to us about someone that he has met a human being who knows all crafts and everything else that each single person knows, and that there is nothing he does not know more accurately than anyone else, we must reply to such a person that he is a simpleton, and that, as it seems, meeting with some magician and imitator he was deceived, so that he thought him all-wise, because of his own inability to examine knowledge and ignorance and imitation." "Most true," he said.
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, μετὰ τοῦτο ἐπισκεπτέον τήν τε τραγῳδίαν καὶ τὸν ἡγεμόνα αὐτῆς Ὅμηρον, ἐπειδή τινων ἀκούομεν ὅτι οὗτοι πάσας μὲν τέχνας ἐπίστανται, πάντα δὲ τὰ ἀνθρώπεια τὰ πρὸς ἀρετὴν καὶ κακίαν, καὶ τά γε θεῖα· ἀνάγκη γὰρ τὸν ἀγαθὸν ποιητήν, εἰ μέλλει περὶ ὧν ἂν ποιῇ καλῶς ποιήσειν, εἰδότα ἄρα ποιεῖν, ἢ μὴ οἷόν τε εἶναι ποιεῖν. §10.599δεῖ δὴ ἐπισκέψασθαι πότερον μιμηταῖς τούτοις οὗτοι ἐντυχόντες ἐξηπάτηνται καὶ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ὁρῶντες οὐκ αἰσθάνονται τριττὰ ἀπέχοντα τοῦ ὄντος καὶ ῥᾴδια ποιεῖν μὴ εἰδότι τὴν ἀλήθειαν—φαντάσματα γὰρ ἀλλʼ οὐκ ὄντα ποιοῦσιν—ἤ τι καὶ λέγουσιν καὶ τῷ ὄντι οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ποιηταὶ ἴσασιν περὶ ὧν δοκοῦσιν τοῖς πολλοῖς εὖ λέγειν. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, ἐξεταστέον. οἴει οὖν, εἴ τις ἀμφότερα δύναιτο ποιεῖν, τό τε μιμηθησόμενον καὶ τὸ εἴδωλον, ἐπὶ τῇ τῶν εἰδώλων δημιουργίᾳ ἑαυτὸν ἀφεῖναι ἂν σπουδάζειν καὶ τοῦτο προστήσασθαι τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ βίου ὡς βέλτιστον ἔχοντα; οὐκ ἔγωγε. ἀλλʼ εἴπερ γε οἶμαι ἐπιστήμων εἴη τῇ ἀληθείᾳ τούτων πέρι ἅπερ καὶ μιμεῖται, πολὺ πρότερον ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις ἂν σπουδάσειεν ἢ ἐπὶ τοῖς μιμήμασι, καὶ πειρῷτο ἂν πολλὰ καὶ καλὰ ἔργα ἑαυτοῦ καταλιπεῖν μνημεῖα, καὶ εἶναι προθυμοῖτʼ ἂν μᾶλλον ὁ ἐγκωμιαζόμενος ἢ ὁ ἐγκωμιάζων. οἶμαι, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ ἐξ ἴσου ἥ τε τιμὴ καὶ ἡ ὠφελία. τῶν μὲν τοίνυν ἄλλων πέρι μὴ ἀπαιτῶμεν λόγον Ὅμηρον ἢ ἄλλον ὁντινοῦν τῶν ποιητῶν, ἐρωτῶντες εἰ ἰατρικὸς ἦν τις αὐτῶν ἀλλὰ μὴ μιμητὴς μόνον ἰατρικῶν λόγων, τίνας ὑγιεῖς ποιητής τις τῶν παλαιῶν ἢ τῶν νέων λέγεται πεποιηκέναι, ὥσπερ Ἀσκληπιός, ἢ τίνας μαθητὰς ἰατρικῆς κατελίπετο, ὥσπερ ἐκεῖνος τοὺς ἐκγόνους, μηδʼ αὖ περὶ τὰς ἄλλας τέχνας αὐτοὺς ἐρωτῶμεν, ἀλλʼ ἐῶμεν·
"Therefore," I said, "after this we must examine tragedy and its leader, Homer, since we hear from some that these men know all crafts, and all human things concerning virtue and vice, and divine things too; for it is necessary that the good poet, if he is going to write well about what he writes, must write with knowledge, or else not be able to write at all." "We must indeed examine whether these people, meeting with these imitators, have been deceived and, looking at their works, do not perceive that they are three removes from what is and easy to make for one who does not know the truth—for they make appearances, not things that are—or whether they actually have something to say and the good poets really know about what they seem to the many to speak well." "By all means," he said, "it must be examined." "Do you think then, if someone were able to make both, the thing to be imitated and the image, he would allow himself to be serious about the craft of making images and put this at the head of his own life as his best possession?" "Not I." "But if, I think, he were truly knowledgeable about these things which he also imitates, he would be much more serious about the works than the imitations, and would try to leave behind many and beautiful works as monuments of himself, and would be more eager to be the one praised than the one praising." "I think so," he said; "for the honor and the benefit are not equal." "Now about the other things let us not demand an account from Homer or any other of the poets, by asking if any of them was a doctor and not merely an imitator of medical talk—what healthy people any poet, ancient or modern, is said to have made, as Asclepius did, or what disciples of medicine he left behind, as he did his descendants—nor let us ask them about the other crafts, but let them go.
περὶ δὲ ὧν μεγίστων τε καὶ καλλίστων ἐπιχειρεῖ λέγειν Ὅμηρος, πολέμων τε πέρι καὶ στρατηγιῶν καὶ διοικήσεων πόλεων, καὶ παιδείας πέρι ἀνθρώπου, δίκαιόν που ἐρωτᾶν αὐτὸν πυνθανομένους· ὦ φίλε Ὅμηρε, εἴπερ μὴ τρίτος ἀπὸ τῆς ἀληθείας εἶ ἀρετῆς πέρι, εἰδώλου δημιουργός, ὃν δὴ μιμητὴν ὡρισάμεθα, ἀλλὰ καὶ δεύτερος, καὶ οἷός τε ἦσθα γιγνώσκειν ποῖα ἐπιτηδεύματα βελτίους ἢ χείρους ἀνθρώπους ποιεῖ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, λέγε ἡμῖν τίς τῶν πόλεων διὰ σὲ βέλτιον ᾤκησεν, ὥσπερ διὰ Λυκοῦργον Λακεδαίμων καὶ διʼ ἄλλους πολλοὺς πολλαὶ μεγάλαι τε καὶ σμικραί;
But about the greatest and most beautiful things that Homer attempts to speak of, about wars and generalship and the administration of cities, and about the education of a human being, it is surely just to question him and inquire: 'Dear Homer, if you are not third from the truth about virtue, a craftsman of an image, whom we defined indeed as an imitator, but even second, and you were able to know what kind of pursuits make human beings better or worse in private and public, tell us which of the cities has been better governed because of you, as Lacedaemon was because of Lycurgus, and many other great and small cities because of many others?
σὲ δὲ τίς αἰτιᾶται πόλις νομοθέτην ἀγαθὸν γεγονέναι καὶ σφᾶς ὠφεληκέναι; Χαρώνδαν μὲν γὰρ Ἰταλία καὶ Σικελία, καὶ ἡμεῖς Σόλωνα·
What city credits you with being a good lawmaker and with having benefited them?
σὲ δὲ τίς; ἕξει τινὰ εἰπεῖν; οὐκ οἶμαι, ἔφη ὁ Γλαύκων· οὔκουν λέγεταί γε οὐδʼ ὑπʼ αὐτῶν Ὁμηριδῶν.
For Italy and Sicily credit Charondas, and we Solon; but who credits you?' Will he have anyone to name?" "I think not," said Glaucon; "at least none is mentioned even by the Homerids themselves."