§10.597τί δὲ ὁ κλινοποιός;
"And what about the couch-maker?
οὐκ ἄρτι μέντοι ἔλεγες ὅτι οὐ τὸ εἶδος ποιεῖ, ὃ δή φαμεν εἶναι ὃ ἔστι κλίνη, ἀλλὰ κλίνην τινά; ἔλεγον γάρ. οὐκοῦν εἰ μὴ ὃ ἔστιν ποιεῖ, οὐκ ἂν τὸ ὂν ποιοῖ, ἀλλά τι τοιοῦτον οἷον τὸ ὄν, ὂν δὲ οὔ·
Didn't you just say that he does not make the form, which we say is 'what a couch is', but some couch?" "I did indeed." "Therefore, if he does not make 'what is', he would not make what is, but something of the sort that is like what is, but is not what is.
τελέως δὲ εἶναι ὂν τὸ τοῦ κλινουργοῦ ἔργον ἢ ἄλλου τινὸς χειροτέχνου εἴ τις φαίη, κινδυνεύει οὐκ ἂν ἀληθῆ λέγειν; οὔκουν, ἔφη, ὥς γʼ ἂν δόξειεν τοῖς περὶ τοὺς τοιούσδε λόγους διατρίβουσιν. μηδὲν ἄρα θαυμάζωμεν εἰ καὶ τοῦτο ἀμυδρόν τι τυγχάνει ὂν πρὸς ἀλήθειαν. μὴ γάρ. βούλει οὖν, ἔφην, ἐπʼ αὐτῶν τούτων ζητήσωμεν τὸν μιμητὴν τοῦτον, τίς ποτʼ ἐστίν;
And if anyone should say that the work of the couch-maker or of any other handworker is completely real, he would risk not speaking the truth, wouldn't he?" "At least so it would seem," he said, "to those who spend time in this kind of discussion." "Let us not be surprised then if this too happens to be something dim in comparison to truth." "Indeed not." "Do you want us then," I said, "on the basis of these very things, to investigate who on earth this imitator is?" "If you want," he said.
εἰ βούλει, ἔφη. οὐκοῦν τριτταί τινες κλῖναι αὗται γίγνονται· μία μὲν ἡ ἐν τῇ φύσει οὖσα, ἣν φαῖμεν ἄν, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, θεὸν ἐργάσασθαι.
"So these turn out to be three kinds of couches: one that is in nature, which we would say, I suppose, God produced.
ἢ τίνʼ ἄλλον;
Or who else?
οὐδένα, οἶμαι. μία δέ γε ἣν ὁ τέκτων. ναί, ἔφη.
No one, I think." "And one which the carpenter made." "Yes," he said.
μία δὲ ἣν ὁ ζωγράφος.
"And one which the painter made.
ἦ γάρ; ἔστω. ζωγράφος δή, κλινοποιός, θεός, τρεῖς οὗτοι ἐπιστάται τρισὶν εἴδεσι κλινῶν. ναὶ τρεῖς. ὁ μὲν δὴ θεός, εἴτε οὐκ ἐβούλετο, εἴτε τις ἀνάγκη ἐπῆν μὴ πλέον ἢ μίαν ἐν τῇ φύσει ἀπεργάσασθαι αὐτὸν κλίνην, οὕτως ἐποίησεν μίαν μόνον αὐτὴν ἐκείνην ὃ ἔστιν κλίνη·
Is it not?" "Let it be so." "Painter, couch-maker, God: these three are overseers of three forms of couches." "Yes, three." "Now God, whether because he did not wish to, or because some necessity was upon him not to produce more than one couch in nature, made only that one, itself, which is 'what a couch is'.
δύο δὲ τοιαῦται ἢ πλείους οὔτε ἐφυτεύθησαν ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ οὔτε μὴ φυῶσιν. πῶς δή; ἔφη.
But two such couches or more were neither planted by God nor may they ever grow." "How so?" he said.
ὅτι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰ δύο μόνας ποιήσειεν, πάλιν ἂν μία ἀναφανείη ἧς ἐκεῖναι ἂν αὖ ἀμφότεραι τὸ εἶδος ἔχοιεν, καὶ εἴη ἂν ὃ ἔστιν κλίνη ἐκείνη ἀλλʼ οὐχ αἱ δύο. ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
"Because," I said, "if he should make only two, again one would appear of which those two would both have the form, and that one would be 'what a couch is', but not the two." "Correct," he said.
ταῦτα δὴ οἶμαι εἰδὼς ὁ θεός, βουλόμενος εἶναι ὄντως κλίνης ποιητὴς ὄντως οὔσης, ἀλλὰ μὴ κλίνης τινὸς μηδὲ κλινοποιός τις, μίαν φύσει αὐτὴν ἔφυσεν. ἔοικεν. βούλει οὖν τοῦτον μὲν φυτουργὸν τούτου προσαγορεύωμεν, ἤ τι τοιοῦτον; δίκαιον γοῦν, ἔφη, ἐπειδήπερ φύσει γε καὶ τοῦτο καὶ τἆλλα πάντα πεποίηκεν.
"Knowing these things, I think, God, wishing to be really a maker of a couch that really is, but not of some particular couch nor to be some couch-maker, produced it as one in nature." "It seems so." "Do you want us then to call him the 'nature-planter' of this, or something of the sort?" "It is just, at any rate," he said, "since by nature he has made both this and all other things." "And what about the carpenter?
τί δὲ τὸν τέκτονα; ἆρʼ οὐ δημιουργὸν κλίνης; ναί. ἦ καὶ τὸν ζωγράφον δημιουργὸν καὶ ποιητὴν τοῦ τοιούτου; οὐδαμῶς. ἀλλὰ τί αὐτὸν κλίνης φήσεις εἶναι; τοῦτο, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ μετριώτατʼ ἂν προσαγορεύεσθαι, μιμητὴς οὗ ἐκεῖνοι δημιουργοί. εἶεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ·
Is he not the craftsman of a couch?" "Yes." "And the painter, is he also a craftsman and maker of such a thing?" "By no means." "But what will you say he is of a couch?" "This," he said, "seems to me at least most reasonable to call him: the imitator of that of which those are craftsmen." "Very well," I said.
τὸν τοῦ τρίτου ἄρα γεννήματος ἀπὸ τῆς φύσεως μιμητὴν καλεῖς; πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
"Do you call him the imitator of the product third from nature?" "By all means," he said.
τοῦτʼ ἄρα ἔσται καὶ ὁ τραγῳδοποιός, εἴπερ μιμητής ἐστι, τρίτος τις ἀπὸ βασιλέως καὶ τῆς ἀληθείας πεφυκώς, καὶ πάντες οἱ ἄλλοι μιμηταί. κινδυνεύει.
"This then will also be the tragic poet, if indeed he is an imitator, being by nature third from the king and the truth, and so too all the other imitators." "It risks being so."