§10.600ἀλλὰ δή τις πόλεμος ἐπὶ Ὁμήρου ὑπʼ ἐκείνου ἄρχοντος ἢ συμβουλεύοντος εὖ πολεμηθεὶς μνημονεύεται; οὐδείς. ἀλλʼ οἷα δὴ εἰς τὰ ἔργα σοφοῦ ἀνδρὸς πολλαὶ ἐπίνοιαι καὶ εὐμήχανοι εἰς τέχνας ἤ τινας ἄλλας πράξεις λέγονται, ὥσπερ αὖ Θάλεώ τε πέρι τοῦ Μιλησίου καὶ Ἀναχάρσιος τοῦ Σκύθου; οὐδαμῶς τοιοῦτον οὐδέν. ἀλλὰ δὴ εἰ μὴ δημοσίᾳ, ἰδίᾳ τισὶν ἡγεμὼν παιδείας αὐτὸς ζῶν λέγεται Ὅμηρος γενέσθαι, οἳ ἐκεῖνον ἠγάπων ἐπὶ συνουσίᾳ καὶ τοῖς ὑστέροις ὁδόν τινα παρέδοσαν βίου Ὁμηρικήν, ὥσπερ Πυθαγόρας αὐτός τε διαφερόντως ἐπὶ τούτῳ ἠγαπήθη, καὶ οἱ ὕστεροι ἔτι καὶ νῦν Πυθαγόρειον τρόπον ἐπονομάζοντες τοῦ βίου διαφανεῖς πῃ δοκοῦσιν εἶναι ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις; οὐδʼ αὖ, ἔφη, τοιοῦτον οὐδὲν λέγεται.
"But is any war in Homer's time remembered as having been well waged under his leadership or advice?" "None." "Well, then, are many inventions and ingenious devices for the crafts or other activities, such as are fitting for the works of a wise man, reported of him, as they are of Thales of Miletus and Anacharsis the Scythian?" "Nothing of the sort at all." "But if not in public, is Homer said, while he was alive, to have been privately a leader in education for certain men who loved him for his companionship and handed down to posterity a certain Homeric way of life, just as Pythagoras himself was exceptionally loved for this, and his followers even now, naming their way of life Pythagorean, seem to be in some way conspicuous among others?" "No, indeed," he said, "nothing of the sort is reported.
ὁ γὰρ Κρεώφυλος, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἴσως, ὁ τοῦ Ὁμήρου ἑταῖρος, τοῦ ὀνόματος ἂν γελοιότερος ἔτι πρὸς παιδείαν φανείη, εἰ τὰ λεγόμενα περὶ Ὁμήρου ἀληθῆ.
For Creophylus, Socrates, the companion of Homer, would perhaps appear even more ridiculous in respect to education than his name, if what is said about Homer is true.
λέγεται γὰρ ὡς πολλή τις ἀμέλεια περὶ αὐτὸν ἦν ἐπʼ αὐτοῦ ἐκείνου, ὅτε ἔζη. λέγεται γὰρ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
For it is said that there was a great neglect of him in his own time, when he was alive." "Indeed, so it is said," I said.
ἀλλʼ οἴει, ὦ Γλαύκων, εἰ τῷ ὄντι οἷός τʼ ἦν παιδεύειν ἀνθρώπους καὶ βελτίους ἀπεργάζεσθαι Ὅμηρος, ἅτε περὶ τούτων οὐ μιμεῖσθαι ἀλλὰ γιγνώσκειν δυνάμενος, οὐκ ἄρʼ ἂν πολλοὺς ἑταίρους ἐποιήσατο καὶ ἐτιμᾶτο καὶ ἠγαπᾶτο ὑπʼ αὐτῶν, ἀλλὰ Πρωταγόρας μὲν ἄρα ὁ Ἀβδηρίτης καὶ Πρόδικος ὁ Κεῖος καὶ ἄλλοι πάμπολλοι δύνανται τοῖς ἐφʼ ἑαυτῶν παριστάναι ἰδίᾳ συγγιγνόμενοι ὡς οὔτε οἰκίαν οὔτε πόλιν τὴν αὑτῶν διοικεῖν οἷοί τʼ ἔσονται, ἐὰν μὴ σφεῖς αὐτῶν ἐπιστατήσωσιν τῆς παιδείας, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ σοφίᾳ οὕτω σφόδρα φιλοῦνται, ὥστε μόνον οὐκ ἐπὶ ταῖς κεφαλαῖς περιφέρουσιν αὐτοὺς οἱ ἑταῖροι·
"But do you think, Glaucon, if Homer had really been able to educate human beings and make them better, being capable of knowing about these things and not merely imitating them, that he would not have made many companions and been honored and loved by them? Whereas Protagoras of Abdera and Prodicus of Ceos and very many others are able, by meeting privately with their contemporaries, to persuade them that they will not be able to govern either their own house or city unless they themselves supervise their education, and they are so intensely loved for this wisdom that their companions almost carry them around on their heads.
Ὅμηρον δʼ ἄρα οἱ ἐπʼ ἐκείνου, εἴπερ οἷός τʼ ἦν πρὸς ἀρετὴν ὀνῆσαι ἀνθρώπους, ἢ Ἡσίοδον ῥαψῳδεῖν ἂν περιιόντας εἴων, καὶ οὐχὶ μᾶλλον ἂν αὐτῶν ἀντείχοντο ἢ τοῦ χρυσοῦ καὶ ἠνάγκαζον παρὰ σφίσιν οἴκοι εἶναι, ἢ εἰ μὴ ἔπειθον, αὐτοὶ ἂν ἐπαιδαγώγουν ὅπῃ ᾖσαν, ἕως ἱκανῶς παιδείας μεταλάβοιεν; παντάπασιν, ἔφη, δοκεῖς μοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀληθῆ λέγειν. §10.601οὐκοῦν τιθῶμεν ἀπὸ Ὁμήρου ἀρξαμένους πάντας τοὺς ποιητικοὺς μιμητὰς εἰδώλων ἀρετῆς εἶναι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων περὶ ὧν ποιοῦσιν, τῆς δὲ ἀληθείας οὐχ ἅπτεσθαι, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, ὁ ζωγράφος σκυτοτόμον ποιήσει δοκοῦντα εἶναι, αὐτός τε οὐκ ἐπαΐων περὶ σκυτοτομίας καὶ τοῖς μὴ ἐπαΐουσιν, ἐκ τῶν χρωμάτων δὲ καὶ σχημάτων θεωροῦσιν;
Would the contemporaries of Homer, then, if he had been able to benefit human beings toward virtue, or those of Hesiod, have allowed them to go around rhapsodizing? Would they not rather have clung to them more than to gold, and forced them to be at home with them, or, if they did not persuade them, would they not themselves have followed them as pupils wherever they went, until they had sufficiently partaken of education?" "You seem to me, Socrates," he said, "to speak the absolute truth." "Shall we then lay down that all the poetic imitators, beginning from Homer, are imitators of images of virtue and of the other things about which they write, but do not touch the truth?
πάνυ μὲν οὖν. οὕτω δὴ οἶμαι καὶ τὸν ποιητικὸν φήσομεν χρώματα ἄττα ἑκάστων τῶν τεχνῶν τοῖς ὀνόμασι καὶ ῥήμασιν ἐπιχρωματίζειν αὐτὸν οὐκ ἐπαΐοντα ἀλλʼ ἢ μιμεῖσθαι, ὥστε ἑτέροις τοιούτοις ἐκ τῶν λόγων θεωροῦσι δοκεῖν, ἐάντε περὶ σκυτοτομίας τις λέγῃ ἐν μέτρῳ καὶ ῥυθμῷ καὶ ἁρμονίᾳ, πάνυ εὖ δοκεῖν λέγεσθαι, ἐάντε περὶ στρατηγίας ἐάντε περὶ ἄλλου ὁτουοῦν· οὕτω φύσει αὐτὰ ταῦτα μεγάλην τινὰ κήλησιν ἔχειν.
Just as we were saying just now, the painter will make a shoemaker who seems to be one, though he himself knows nothing of shoemaking, and to those who also do not know, but judge only from colors and shapes?" "By all means." "Thus, I think, we shall say that the poet too, though he himself knows nothing but how to imitate, colors each of the crafts with certain words and phrases, so that it seems to others like him, who judge from the words, when someone speaks of shoemaking in meter, rhythm, and harmony, to be spoken very well, or of generalship, or of any other thing; so great a charm do these things themselves naturally possess.
ἐπεὶ γυμνωθέντα γε τῶν τῆς μουσικῆς χρωμάτων τὰ τῶν ποιητῶν, αὐτὰ ἐφʼ αὑτῶν λεγόμενα, οἶμαί σε εἰδέναι οἷα φαίνεται.
For when the works of the poets are stripped of the colors of music, and spoken by themselves, I think you know how they appear.
τεθέασαι γάρ που. ἔγωγʼ, ἔφη.
For you have surely observed them." "I have," he said.
οὐκοῦν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἔοικεν τοῖς τῶν ὡραίων προσώποις, καλῶν δὲ μή, οἷα γίγνεται ἰδεῖν ὅταν αὐτὰ τὸ ἄνθος προλίπῃ; παντάπασιν, ἦ δʼ ὅς.
"Is it not," I said, "like the faces of those who are in their youth, but not beautiful, such as they appear when their bloom has left them?" "Absolutely," he said.
ἴθι δή, τόδε ἄθρει· ὁ τοῦ εἰδώλου ποιητής, ὁ μιμητής, φαμέν, τοῦ μὲν ὄντος οὐδὲν ἐπαΐει, τοῦ δὲ φαινομένου· οὐχ οὕτως; ναί. μὴ τοίνυν ἡμίσεως αὐτὸ καταλίπωμεν ῥηθέν, ἀλλʼ ἱκανῶς ἴδωμεν. λέγε, ἔφη.
"Come then, consider this: the maker of the image, the imitator, we say, knows nothing of what is, but only of what appears; is it not so?" "Yes." "Let us not, then, leave this half-said, but let us see it sufficiently." "Speak," he said.
ζωγράφος, φαμέν, ἡνίας τε γράψει καὶ χαλινόν; ναί. ποιήσει δέ γε σκυτοτόμος καὶ χαλκεύς; πάνυ γε. ἆρʼ οὖν ἐπαΐει οἵας δεῖ τὰς ἡνίας εἶναι καὶ τὸν χαλινὸν ὁ γραφεύς; ἢ οὐδʼ ὁ ποιήσας, ὅ τε χαλκεὺς καὶ ὁ σκυτεύς, ἀλλʼ ἐκεῖνος ὅσπερ τούτοις ἐπίσταται χρῆσθαι, μόνος ὁ ἱππικός; ἀληθέστατα.
"A painter, we say, will paint both reins and a bit?" "Yes." "But a shoemaker and a smith will make them?" "Certainly." "Does the painter, then, know how the reins and the bit ought to be?
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ περὶ πάντα οὕτω φήσομεν ἔχειν; πῶς; περὶ ἕκαστον ταύτας τινὰς τρεῖς τέχνας εἶναι, χρησομένην, ποιήσουσαν, μιμησομένην; ναί. οὐκοῦν ἀρετὴ καὶ κάλλος καὶ ὀρθότης ἑκάστου σκεύους καὶ ζῴου καὶ πράξεως οὐ πρὸς ἄλλο τι ἢ τὴν χρείαν ἐστίν, πρὸς ἣν ἂν ἕκαστον ᾖ πεποιημένον ἢ πεφυκός; οὕτως. πολλὴ ἄρα ἀνάγκη τὸν χρώμενον ἑκάστῳ ἐμπειρότατόν τε εἶναι καὶ ἄγγελον γίγνεσθαι τῷ ποιητῇ οἷα ἀγαθὰ ἢ κακὰ ποιεῖ ἐν τῇ χρείᾳ ᾧ χρῆται·
Or does not even the maker know, the smith and the shoemaker, but only the one who knows how to use them, the horseman alone?" "Most true." "Shall we not say, then, that it is so in all cases?" "How?" "That concerning each thing there are these three crafts: one that will use, one that will make, and one that will imitate?" "Yes." "Are not, then, the virtue, beauty, and correctness of each implement, living thing, and action, directed toward nothing other than the use for which each was made or produced by nature?" "Thus it is." "There is, then, a great necessity that the user of each thing should be the most experienced, and should become a reporter to the maker of what good or bad effects it produces in the use of that which he uses.
οἷον αὐλητής που αὐλοποιῷ ἐξαγγέλλει περὶ τῶν αὐλῶν, οἳ ἂν ὑπηρετῶσιν ἐν τῷ αὐλεῖν, καὶ ἐπιτάξει οἵους δεῖ ποιεῖν, ὁ δʼ ὑπηρετήσει. πῶς δʼ οὔ; οὐκοῦν ὁ μὲν εἰδὼς ἐξαγγέλλει περὶ χρηστῶν καὶ πονηρῶν αὐλῶν, ὁ δὲ πιστεύων ποιήσει; ναί.
For example, a flute-player surely reports to the flute-maker about the flutes which serve him in playing, and will instruct him what kind of flutes he ought to make, and the other will serve him." "How not?" "Does not, then, the one who knows report about good and bad flutes, and the other, trusting him, will make them?" "Yes."