§10.595καὶ μήν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, πολλὰ μὲν καὶ ἄλλα περὶ αὐτῆς ἐννοῶ, ὡς παντὸς ἄρα μᾶλλον ὀρθῶς ᾠκίζομεν τὴν πόλιν, οὐχ ἥκιστα δὲ ἐνθυμηθεὶς περὶ ποιήσεως λέγω. τὸ ποῖον;
"And indeed," I said, "while I think of many other things concerning it, that we founded our city in an entirely correct way, I say this not least having reflected on poetry." "What sort of thing?" he said.
ἔφη. τὸ μηδαμῇ παραδέχεσθαι αὐτῆς ὅση μιμητική· παντὸς γὰρ μᾶλλον οὐ παραδεκτέα νῦν καὶ ἐναργέστερον, ὡς ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, φαίνεται, ἐπειδὴ χωρὶς ἕκαστα διῄρηται τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς εἴδη. πῶς λέγεις; ὡς μὲν πρὸς ὑμᾶς εἰρῆσθαι—οὐ γάρ μου κατερεῖτε πρὸς τοὺς τῆς τραγῳδίας ποιητὰς καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους ἅπαντας τοὺς μιμητικούς—λώβη ἔοικεν εἶναι πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα τῆς τῶν ἀκουόντων διανοίας, ὅσοι μὴ ἔχουσι φάρμακον τὸ εἰδέναι αὐτὰ οἷα τυγχάνει ὄντα.
"The not admitting any of it that is imitative; for that it must not be admitted appears now, as it seems to me, even more clearly, since the forms of the soul have each been separately distinguished." "How do you mean?" "To speak to you—for you will not denounce me to the tragic poets and all the other imitative ones—all such things seem to be a ruin of the mind of those who hear them, at least as many as do not possess as an antidote the knowledge of what they happen to be." "In what way do you mean that?" he said.
πῇ δή, ἔφη, διανοούμενος λέγεις; ῥητέον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· καίτοι φιλία γέ τίς με καὶ αἰδὼς ἐκ παιδὸς ἔχουσα περὶ Ὁμήρου ἀποκωλύει λέγειν.
"It must be said," I said; "and yet a certain friendship and reverence for Homer, which I have had since childhood, prevents me from speaking.
ἔοικε μὲν γὰρ τῶν καλῶν ἁπάντων τούτων τῶν τραγικῶν πρῶτος διδάσκαλός τε καὶ ἡγεμὼν γενέσθαι.
For he seems to have been the first teacher and leader of all these beautiful tragic things.
ἀλλʼ οὐ γὰρ πρό γε τῆς ἀληθείας τιμητέος ἀνήρ, ἀλλʼ, ὃ λέγω, ῥητέον. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
But a man must not be honored before the truth; so, as I say, it must be said." "By all means," he said.
ἄκουε δή, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀποκρίνου. Ἐρώτα.
"Listen then, or rather, answer." "Ask," he said.
μίμησιν ὅλως ἔχοις ἄν μοι εἰπεῖν ὅτι ποτʼ ἐστίν;
"Could you tell me what imitation as a whole is?
οὐδὲ γάρ τοι αὐτὸς πάνυ τι συννοῶ τί βούλεται εἶναι. ἦ που ἄρʼ, ἔφη, ἐγὼ συννοήσω. §10.596οὐδέν γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἄτοπον, ἐπεὶ πολλά τοι ὀξύτερον βλεπόντων ἀμβλύτερον ὁρῶντες πρότεροι εἶδον. ἔστιν, ἔφη, οὕτως· ἀλλὰ σοῦ παρόντος οὐδʼ ἂν προθυμηθῆναι οἷός τε εἴην εἰπεῖν, εἴ τί μοι καταφαίνεται, ἀλλʼ αὐτὸς ὅρα. βούλει οὖν ἐνθένδε ἀρξώμεθα ἐπισκοποῦντες, ἐκ τῆς εἰωθυίας μεθόδου;
For I myself do not entirely understand what it wants to be." "Then is it likely indeed," he said, "that I shall understand?" "There is nothing strange in that," I said, "since many a time those who see more dimly see things before those who look more sharply." "That is so," he said; "but in your presence, I would not even be able to be eager to speak, if something should appear to me; so look yourself." "Do you want us, then, to begin our investigation from here, following our accustomed method?
εἶδος γάρ πού τι ἓν ἕκαστον εἰώθαμεν τίθεσθαι περὶ ἕκαστα τὰ πολλά, οἷς ταὐτὸν ὄνομα ἐπιφέρομεν.
For we are accustomed to assume a single form in each case for the many things to which we apply the same name.
ἢ οὐ μανθάνεις; μανθάνω. θῶμεν δὴ καὶ νῦν ὅτι βούλει τῶν πολλῶν.
Or do you not understand?" "I understand." "Then let us assume now too whatever of the many you wish.
οἷον, εἰ ʼθʼέλεις, πολλαί πού εἰσι κλῖναι καὶ τράπεζαι. πῶς δʼ οὔ; ἀλλὰ ἰδέαι γέ που περὶ ταῦτα τὰ σκεύη δύο, μία μὲν κλίνης, μία δὲ τραπέζης. ναί. οὐκοῦν καὶ εἰώθαμεν λέγειν ὅτι ὁ δημιουργὸς ἑκατέρου τοῦ σκεύους πρὸς τὴν ἰδέαν βλέπων οὕτω ποιεῖ ὁ μὲν τὰς κλίνας, ὁ δὲ τὰς τραπέζας, αἷς ἡμεῖς χρώμεθα, καὶ τἆλλα κατὰ ταὐτά;
For example, if you like, there are surely many couches and tables." "Of course." "But there are surely two ideas for these vessels, one of a couch and one of a table." "Yes." "And are we not also accustomed to say that the craftsman of each of the vessels, looking to the idea, makes in this way, the one the couches and the other the tables which we use, and other things in the same way?
οὐ γάρ που τήν γε ἰδέαν αὐτὴν δημιουργεῖ οὐδεὶς τῶν δημιουργῶν· πῶς γάρ; οὐδαμῶς. ἀλλʼ ὅρα δὴ καὶ τόνδε τίνα καλεῖς τὸν δημιουργόν. τὸν ποῖον; ὃς πάντα ποιεῖ, ὅσαπερ εἷς ἕκαστος τῶν χειροτεχνῶν. δεινόν τινα λέγεις καὶ θαυμαστὸν ἄνδρα. οὔπω γε, ἀλλὰ τάχα μᾶλλον φήσεις.
For surely none of the craftsmen crafts the idea itself; for how could he?" "By no means." "But look now, what do you call this craftsman too?" "What sort of one?" "The one who makes everything, as many things as each one of the handworkers makes." "You speak of a clever and wonderful man." "Not yet, but soon you will say so even more.
ὁ αὐτὸς γὰρ οὗτος χειροτέχνης οὐ μόνον πάντα οἷός τε σκεύη ποιῆσαι, ἀλλὰ καὶ τὰ ἐκ τῆς γῆς φυόμενα ἅπαντα ποιεῖ καὶ ζῷα πάντα ἐργάζεται, τά τε ἄλλα καὶ ἑαυτόν, καὶ πρὸς τούτοις γῆν καὶ οὐρανὸν καὶ θεοὺς καὶ πάντα τὰ ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ τὰ ἐν Ἅιδου ὑπὸ γῆς ἅπαντα ἐργάζεται. πάνυ θαυμαστόν, ἔφη, λέγεις σοφιστήν.
For this same handworker is not only able to make all vessels, but he also makes all things that grow from the earth, and fashions all living creatures—the others and himself—and, in addition to these, he fashions earth and heaven and gods and all things in heaven and all things in Hades under the earth." "You speak of an altogether wonderful sophist," he said.
ἀπιστεῖς; ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
"Do you disbelieve?" I said.
καί μοι εἰπέ, τὸ παράπαν οὐκ ἄν σοι δοκεῖ εἶναι τοιοῦτος δημιουργός, ἢ τινὶ μὲν τρόπῳ γενέσθαι ἂν τούτων ἁπάντων ποιητής, τινὶ δὲ οὐκ ἄν;
"And tell me, does it seem to you that there is absolutely no such craftsman, or that in one way there could be a maker of all these things, but in another way not?
ἢ οὐκ αἰσθάνῃ ὅτι κἂν αὐτὸς οἷός τʼ εἴης πάντα ταῦτα ποιῆσαι τρόπῳ γέ τινι; καὶ τίς, ἔφη, ὁ τρόπος οὗτος;
Or do you not perceive that you yourself would be able to make all these things in a certain way?" "And what is this way?" he said.
οὐ χαλεπός, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἀλλὰ πολλαχῇ καὶ ταχὺ δημιουργούμενος, τάχιστα δέ που, εἰ ʼθέλεις λαβὼν κάτοπτρον περιφέρειν πανταχῇ· ταχὺ μὲν ἥλιον ποιήσεις καὶ τὰ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ταχὺ δὲ γῆν, ταχὺ δὲ σαυτόν τε καὶ τἆλλα ζῷα καὶ σκεύη καὶ φυτὰ καὶ πάντα ὅσα νυνδὴ ἐλέγετο. ναί, ἔφη, φαινόμενα, οὐ μέντοι ὄντα γέ που τῇ ἀληθείᾳ. καλῶς, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ εἰς δέον ἔρχῃ τῷ λόγῳ.
"Not difficult," I said, "but crafted in many places and quickly, and most quickly of all, if you wish, taking a mirror to carry it around everywhere; quickly you will make the sun and the things in heaven, quickly the earth, quickly yourself and the other living creatures, and vessels and plants and all that was just now mentioned." "Yes," he said, "appearing ones, but surely not existing in truth." "Excellent," I said, "and you come to the very point needed for the argument.
τῶν τοιούτων γὰρ οἶμαι δημιουργῶν καὶ ὁ ζωγράφος ἐστίν.
For I think the painter also is one of these craftsmen.
ἦ γάρ; πῶς γὰρ οὔ; ἀλλὰ φήσεις οὐκ ἀληθῆ οἶμαι αὐτὸν ποιεῖν ἃ ποιεῖ.
Isn't he?" "Of course." "But you will say, I think, that he does not make what he makes true.
καίτοι τρόπῳ γέ τινι καὶ ὁ ζωγράφος κλίνην ποιεῖ· ἢ οὔ; ναί, ἔφη, φαινομένην γε καὶ οὗτος.
And yet, in a certain way, the painter too makes a couch; or does he not?" "Yes," he said, "an appearing one, at least, he too."