§1.341τοιοῦτον οὖν δή σοι καὶ ἐμὲ ὑπόλαβε νυνδὴ ἀποκρίνεσθαι· τὸ δὲ ἀκριβέστατον ἐκεῖνο τυγχάνει ὄν, τὸν ἄρχοντα, καθʼ ὅσον ἄρχων ἐστίν, μὴ ἁμαρτάνειν, μὴ ἁμαρτάνοντα δὲ τὸ αὑτῷ βέλτιστον τίθεσθαι, τοῦτο δὲ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ ποιητέον.
"Assume then that I too was answering you in this way just now; but that most precise point is this: that the ruler, so far as he is a ruler, does not make mistakes, and not making mistakes, he lays down what is best for himself, and this must be done by the ruled.
ὥστε ὅπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἔλεγον δίκαιον λέγω, τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος ποιεῖν συμφέρον. εἶεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Θρασύμαχε· δοκῶ σοι συκοφαντεῖν;
So that I say the just is what I was saying from the beginning, to do the advantage of the stronger." "Very well," I said, "Thrasymachus; do I seem to you to be a sycophant?" "Most certainly indeed," he said.
πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη. οἴει γάρ με ἐξ ἐπιβουλῆς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις κακουργοῦντά σε ἐρέσθαι ὡς ἠρόμην; εὖ μὲν οὖν οἶδα, ἔφη.
"For do you think that I asked as I did because I was maliciously plotting to do you harm in the arguments?" "I know it well indeed," he said.
καὶ οὐδέν γέ σοι πλέον ἔσται· οὔτε γὰρ ἄν με λάθοις κακουργῶν, οὔτε μὴ λαθὼν βιάσασθαι τῷ λόγῳ δύναιο. οὐδέ γʼ ἂν ἐπιχειρήσαιμι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ μακάριε.
"And it will do you no good; for you would neither escape my notice when playing your malicious tricks, nor, failing to escape it, would you be able to force me in the argument." "I wouldn't even attempt it, my blessed man," I said.
ἀλλʼ ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἡμῖν τοιοῦτον ἐγγένηται, διόρισαι ποτέρως λέγεις τὸν ἄρχοντά τε καὶ τὸν κρείττονα, τὸν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἢ τὸν ἀκριβεῖ λόγῳ, ὃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγες, οὗ τὸ συμφέρον κρείττονος ὄντος δίκαιον ἔσται τῷ ἥττονι ποιεῖν. τὸν τῷ ἀκριβεστάτῳ, ἔφη, λόγῳ ἄρχοντα ὄντα.
"But so that this sort of thing does not happen to us again, define in which way you mean the ruler and the stronger: the one in common parlance, so to speak, or the one in the precise sense, whom you were just now mentioning, whose advantage, as he is the stronger, it will be just for the weaker to do." "The one who is a ruler in the most precise sense," he said.
πρὸς ταῦτα κακούργει καὶ συκοφάντει, εἴ τι δύνασαι—οὐδέν σου παρίεμαι—ἀλλʼ οὐ μὴ οἷός τʼ ᾖς. οἴει γὰρ ἄν με, εἶπον, οὕτω μανῆναι ὥστε ξυρεῖν ἐπιχειρεῖν λέοντα καὶ συκοφαντεῖν Θρασύμαχον; νῦν γοῦν, ἔφη, ἐπεχείρησας, οὐδὲν ὢν καὶ ταῦτα. ἅδην, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τῶν τοιούτων.
"Against this, do your malicious tricks and play the sycophant, if you can at all—I ask no favors of you—but you will not be able to." ¦341c "For do you think," I said, "that I would be so mad as to attempt to shave a lion and play the sycophant with Thrasymachus?" "Just now, at any rate," he said, "you did attempt it, and that too, being a nobody at it." "Enough of such things," I said.
ἀλλʼ εἰπέ μοι· ὁ τῷ ἀκριβεῖ λόγῳ ἰατρός, ὃν ἄρτι ἔλεγες, πότερον χρηματιστής ἐστιν ἢ τῶν καμνόντων θεραπευτής;
"But tell me: is the physician in the precise sense, whom you just now mentioned, a money-maker or a healer of the sick?
καὶ λέγε τὸν τῷ ὄντι ἰατρὸν ὄντα. τῶν καμνόντων, ἔφη, θεραπευτής.
And speak of the one who is truly a physician." "A healer of the sick," he said.
τί δὲ κυβερνήτης;
"And what of a pilot?
ὁ ὀρθῶς κυβερνήτης ναυτῶν ἄρχων ἐστὶν ἢ ναύτης; ναυτῶν ἄρχων. οὐδὲν οἶμαι τοῦτο ὑπολογιστέον, ὅτι πλεῖ ἐν τῇ νηί, οὐδʼ ἐστὶν κλητέος ναύτης· οὐ γὰρ κατὰ τὸ πλεῖν κυβερνήτης καλεῖται, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην καὶ τὴν τῶν ναυτῶν ἀρχήν. ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
Is the correct pilot a ruler of sailors or a sailor?" "A ruler of sailors." ¦341d "We must not, I think, take into account at all that he sails in the ship, nor is he to be called a sailor; for he is not called a pilot because he sails, but because of his art and his rule over the sailors." "True," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἑκάστῳ τούτων ἔστιν τι συμφέρον; πάνυ γε. οὐ καὶ ἡ τέχνη, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐπὶ τούτῳ πέφυκεν, ἐπὶ τῷ τὸ συμφέρον ἑκάστῳ ζητεῖν τε καὶ ἐκπορίζειν; ἐπὶ τούτῳ, ἔφη.
"Therefore, is there some advantage for each of these?" "Certainly." "And is the art too," I said, "naturally directed to this, to seek out and provide the advantage for each?" "To this," he said.
ἆρʼ οὖν καὶ ἑκάστῃ τῶν τεχνῶν ἔστιν τι συμφέρον ἄλλο ἢ ὅτι μάλιστα τελέαν εἶναι; πῶς τοῦτο ἐρωτᾷς; ὥσπερ, ἔφην ἐγώ, εἴ με ἔροιο εἰ ἐξαρκεῖ σώματι εἶναι σώματι ἢ προσδεῖταί τινος, εἴποιμʼ ἂν ὅτι
παντάπασι μὲν οὖν προσδεῖται.
"Is there, then, for each of the arts any other advantage than to be as perfect as possible?" ¦341e "How do you ask this?" "Just as," I said, "if you should ask me whether it is sufficient for a body to be a body or whether it needs something in addition, I would say: 'By all means, indeed, it needs something in addition.' And for this reason the art of medicine has now been discovered, because the body is defective and it is not sufficient for it to be such as it is.
διὰ ταῦτα καὶ ἡ τέχνη ἐστὶν ἡ ἰατρικὴ νῦν ηὑρημένη, ὅτι σῶμά ἐστιν πονηρὸν καὶ οὐκ ἐξαρκεῖ αὐτῷ τοιούτῳ εἶναι. τούτῳ οὖν ὅπως ἐκπορίζῃ τὰ συμφέροντα, ἐπὶ τούτῳ παρεσκευάσθη ἡ τέχνη.
Therefore, so that it may provide advantages to this, the art was prepared for this purpose.
ἦ ὀρθῶς σοι δοκῶ, ἔφην, ἂν εἰπεῖν οὕτω λέγων, ἢ οὔ;
Do I seem to you to speak correctly in saying this, or not?"