§1.336ἀλλʼ οἶσθα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, οὗ μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι τὸ ῥῆμα, τὸ φάναι δίκαιον εἶναι τοὺς μὲν φίλους ὠφελεῖν, τοὺς δʼ ἐχθροὺς βλάπτειν; τίνος;
"But do you know," I said, "to whom I think that saying belongs—the saying that it is just to benefit friends and harm enemies?" "Whose?" he said.
ἔφη. οἶμαι αὐτὸ Περιάνδρου εἶναι ἢ Περδίκκου ἢ Ξέρξου ἢ Ἰσμηνίου τοῦ Θηβαίου ἤ τινος ἄλλου μέγα οἰομένου δύνασθαι πλουσίου ἀνδρός. ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, λέγεις.
"I think it belongs to Periander or Perdiccas or Xerxes or Ismenias the Theban, or some other rich man who thought he had great power." "You speak the absolute truth," he said.
εἶεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐδὲ τοῦτο ἐφάνη ἡ δικαιοσύνη ὂν οὐδὲ τὸ δίκαιον, τί ἂν ἄλλο τις αὐτὸ φαίη εἶναι; καὶ ὁ Θρασύμαχος πολλάκις μὲν καὶ διαλεγομένων ἡμῶν μεταξὺ ὥρμα ἀντιλαμβάνεσθαι τοῦ λόγου, ἔπειτα ὑπὸ τῶν παρακαθημένων διεκωλύετο βουλομένων διακοῦσαι τὸν λόγον·
"Very well," I said; "since then this too has appeared not to be justice or the just, what else would anyone say it is?" And Thrasymachus had often started to interrupt the discussion while we were talking, but was prevented by those sitting near him who wanted to hear the argument out.
ὡς δὲ διεπαυσάμεθα καὶ ἐγὼ ταῦτʼ εἶπον, οὐκέτι ἡσυχίαν ἦγεν, ἀλλὰ συστρέψας ἑαυτὸν ὥσπερ θηρίον ἧκεν ἐφʼ ἡμᾶς ὡς διαρπασόμενος.
But when we paused and I said these things, he could no longer keep quiet, but, gathering himself up like a wild beast, he came at us as if to tear us to pieces.
καὶ ἐγώ τε καὶ ὁ Πολέμαρχος δείσαντες διεπτοήθημεν· ὁ δʼ εἰς τὸ μέσον φθεγξάμενος, τίς, ἔφη, ὑμᾶς πάλαι φλυαρία ἔχει, ὦ Σώκρατες;
And both Polemarchus and I were terrified and fluttered; and he, speaking out into the midst, said, "What nonsense has possessed you two for so long, Socrates?
καὶ τί εὐηθίζεσθε πρὸς ἀλλήλους ὑποκατακλινόμενοι ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς;
And why do you act like simpletons, giving way to one another?
ἀλλʼ εἴπερ ὡς ἀληθῶς βούλει εἰδέναι τὸ δίκαιον ὅτι ἔστι, μὴ μόνον ἐρώτα μηδὲ φιλοτιμοῦ ἐλέγχων ἐπειδάν τίς τι ἀποκρίνηται, ἐγνωκὼς τοῦτο, ὅτι ῥᾷον ἐρωτᾶν ἢ ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπόκριναι καὶ εἰπὲ τί φῂς εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον.
But if you truly want to know what the just is, do not merely ask questions, nor seek honor by refuting whenever someone answers, knowing this, that it is easier to ask than to answer; but answer yourself as well and say what you claim the just to be.
καὶ ὅπως μοι μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι τὸ δέον ἐστὶν μηδʼ ὅτι τὸ ὠφέλιμον μηδʼ ὅτι τὸ λυσιτελοῦν μηδʼ ὅτι τὸ κερδαλέον μηδʼ ὅτι τὸ συμφέρον, ἀλλὰ σαφῶς μοι καὶ ἀκριβῶς λέγε ὅτι ἂν λέγῃς· ὡς ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀποδέξομαι ἐὰν ὕθλους τοιούτους λέγῃς. καὶ ἐγὼ ἀκούσας ἐξεπλάγην καὶ προσβλέπων αὐτὸν ἐφοβούμην, καί μοι δοκῶ, εἰ μὴ πρότερος ἑωράκη αὐτὸν ἢ ἐκεῖνος ἐμέ, ἄφωνος ἂν γενέσθαι.
And mind you don't tell me that it is the due, or the beneficial, or the profitable, or the gainful, or the advantageous, but tell me clearly and precisely whatever you mean; for I won't accept it if you talk such rubbish." And when I heard this, I was astonished, and looking at him, I was frightened; and I think that if I had not looked at him before he looked at me, I would have become speechless.
νῦν δὲ ἡνίκα ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου ἤρχετο ἐξαγριαίνεσθαι, προσέβλεψα αὐτὸν πρότερος, ὥστε αὐτῷ οἷός τʼ ἐγενόμην ἀποκρίνασθαι, καὶ εἶπον ὑποτρέμων· ὦ Θρασύμαχε, μὴ χαλεπὸς ἡμῖν ἴσθι·
But as it was, at the moment when he began to be exasperated by the argument, I looked at him first, so that I was able to answer him, and I said, trembling slightly: "Thrasymachus, do not be hard on us.
εἰ γάρ τι ἐξαμαρτάνομεν ἐν τῇ τῶν λόγων σκέψει ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε, εὖ ἴσθι ὅτι ἄκοντες ἁμαρτάνομεν.
For if we are making any mistake in the examination of the arguments, both I and this man here, be assured that we err unwillingly.
μὴ γὰρ δὴ οἴου, εἰ μὲν χρυσίον ἐζητοῦμεν, οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἡμᾶς ἑκόντας εἶναι ὑποκατακλίνεσθαι ἀλλήλοις ἐν τῇ ζητήσει καὶ διαφθείρειν τὴν εὕρεσιν αὐτοῦ, δικαιοσύνην δὲ ζητοῦντας, πρᾶγμα πολλῶν χρυσίων τιμιώτερον, ἔπειθʼ οὕτως ἀνοήτως ὑπείκειν ἀλλήλοις καὶ οὐ σπουδάζειν ὅτι μάλιστα φανῆναι αὐτό.
For do not suppose that, if we were searching for gold, we would ever willingly give way to one another in the search and ruin our chance of finding it, and yet, when searching for justice, a thing more precious than much gold, we would then so foolishly yield to one another and not exert ourselves to the utmost to bring it to light.
§1.337οἴου γε σύ, ὦ φίλε. ἀλλʼ οἶμαι οὐ δυνάμεθα·
Do believe that, my friend.
ἐλεεῖσθαι οὖν ἡμᾶς πολὺ μᾶλλον εἰκός ἐστίν που ὑπὸ ὑμῶν τῶν δεινῶν ἢ χαλεπαίνεσθαι. καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας ἀνεκάγχασέ τε μάλα σαρδάνιον καὶ εἶπεν· ὦ Ἡράκλεις, ἔφη, αὕτη ʼκείνη ἡ εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία Σωκράτους, καὶ ταῦτʼ ἐγὼ ᾔδη τε καὶ τούτοις προύλεγον, ὅτι σὺ ἀποκρίνασθαι μὲν οὐκ ἐθελήσοις, εἰρωνεύσοιο δὲ καὶ πάντα μᾶλλον ποιήσοις ἢ ἀποκρινοῖο, εἴ τίς τί σε ἐρωτᾷ.
But I think we are not able to do so; it is therefore far more reasonable that we should be pitied by you clever people than that you should be angry with us." And when he heard this, he laughed very sardonically and said, "Heracles!" he said, "This is that customary irony of Socrates!
σοφὸς γὰρ εἶ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Θρασύμαχε·
And I both knew this and told these people beforehand that you would refuse to answer, that you would play the ironist and do anything rather than answer if anyone asked you anything." "For you are wise, Thrasymachus," I said.
εὖ οὖν ᾔδησθα ὅτι εἴ τινα ἔροιο ὁπόσα ἐστὶν τὰ δώδεκα, καὶ ἐρόμενος προείποις αὐτῷ—
ὅπως μοι, ὦ ἄνθρωπε, μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι ἔστιν τὰ δώδεκα δὶς ἓξ μηδʼ ὅτι τρὶς τέτταρα μηδʼ ὅτι ἑξάκις δύο μηδʼ ὅτι τετράκις τρία· ὡς οὐκ ἀποδέξομαί σου ἐὰν τοιαῦτα φλυαρῇς
—δῆλον οἶμαί σοι ἦν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἀποκρινοῖτο τῷ οὕτως πυνθανομένῳ.
"So you knew very well that if you asked someone how many twelve is, and as you asked you warned him beforehand— 'Mind, fellow, you don't tell me that twelve is twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three; for I won't accept it if you talk such nonsense'— —it was clear to you, I suppose, that no one would answer a man who inquired in that way.
ἀλλʼ εἴ σοι εἶπεν· ὦ Θρασύμαχε, πῶς λέγεις;
But if he had said to you: 'Thrasymachus, what do you mean?
μὴ ἀποκρίνωμαι ὧν προεῖπες μηδέν;
Am I not to answer any of those things you listed beforehand?
πότερον, ὦ θαυμάσιε, μηδʼ εἰ τούτων τι τυγχάνει ὄν, ἀλλʼ ἕτερον εἴπω τι τοῦ ἀληθοῦς; ἢ πῶς λέγεις;
Even if, my wonderful sir, one of them happens to be the truth, am I still not to say it, but say something other than the truth?
τί ἂν αὐτῷ εἶπες πρὸς ταῦτα; εἶεν, ἔφη· ὡς δὴ ὅμοιον τοῦτο ἐκείνῳ. οὐδέν γε κωλύει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ·
Or what do you mean?' What would you have said to him in reply to this?" "Well," he said, "as if this case were like that one!" "Nothing prevents it," I said.
εἰ δʼ οὖν καὶ μὴ ἔστιν ὅμοιον, φαίνεται δὲ τῷ ἐρωτηθέντι τοιοῦτον, ἧττόν τι αὐτὸν οἴει ἀποκρινεῖσθαι τὸ φαινόμενον ἑαυτῷ, ἐάντε ἡμεῖς ἀπαγορεύωμεν ἐάντε μή; ἄλλο τι οὖν, ἔφη, καὶ σὺ οὕτω ποιήσεις· ὧν ἐγὼ ἀπεῖπον, τούτων τι ἀποκρινῇ;
"And even if it is not like it, but appears so to the person questioned, do you think he is any less likely to answer what appears to him, whether we forbid it or not?" "Is that, then, what you are going to do?" he said.
οὐκ ἂν θαυμάσαιμι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ· εἴ μοι σκεψαμένῳ οὕτω δόξειεν. τί οὖν, ἔφη, ἂν ἐγὼ δείξω ἑτέραν ἀπόκρισιν παρὰ πάσας ταύτας περὶ δικαιοσύνης, βελτίω τούτων;
"Will you answer one of the things I forbade?" "I shouldn't be surprised," I said, "if it should seem so to me upon consideration." "What then," he said, "if I should show you another answer about justice, different from all these and better than them?
τί ἀξιοῖς παθεῖν; τί ἄλλο, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἢ ὅπερ προσήκει πάσχειν τῷ μὴ εἰδότι;
What penalty do you think you deserve to suffer?" "What else," I said, "than what is proper for one who does not know to suffer?
προσήκει δέ που μαθεῖν παρὰ τοῦ εἰδότος·
And it is proper, I suppose, to learn from the one who knows.
καὶ ἐγὼ οὖν τοῦτο ἀξιῶ παθεῖν. ἡδὺς γὰρ εἶ, ἔφη·
So I think I deserve to suffer that." "How sweet you are!" he said.
ἀλλὰ πρὸς τῷ μαθεῖν καὶ ἀπότεισον ἀργύριον. οὐκοῦν ἐπειδάν μοι γένηται, εἶπον.
"But in addition to learning, you must also pay a fine in money." "Well, as soon as I have some," I said.
ἀλλʼ ἔστιν, ἔφη ὁ Γλαύκων.
"But you have it," said Glaucon.
ἀλλʼ ἕνεκα ἀργυρίου, ὦ Θρασύμαχε, λέγε· πάντες γὰρ ἡμεῖς Σωκράτει εἰσοίσομεν. πάνυ γε οἶμαι, ἦ δʼ ὅς· ἵνα Σωκράτης τὸ εἰωθὸς διαπράξηται· αὐτὸς μὲν μὴ ἀποκρίνηται, ἄλλου δʼ ἀποκρινομένου λαμβάνῃ λόγον καὶ ἐλέγχῃ.
"If it's a matter of money, Thrasymachus, speak; for we will all contribute for Socrates." "I dare say," he said, "so that Socrates may play his usual game: he won't answer himself, but when someone else answers, he will take up the argument and refute it."