§518ΣΩ. διὸ δὴ καὶ ταύτας μὲν δουλοπρεπεῖς τε καὶ διακονικὰς καὶ ἀνελευθέρους εἶναι περὶ σώματος πραγματείαν, τὰς ἄλλας τέχνας, τὴν δὲ γυμναστικὴν καὶ ἰατρικὴν κατὰ τὸ δίκαιον δεσποίνας εἶναι τούτων.
SOCRATES: For this reason, indeed, these other arts are slavish, serving, and illiberal, being a business concerned with the body, while gymnastics and medicine are by right the mistresses of these.
ταὐτὰ οὖν ταῦτα ὅτι ἔστιν καὶ περὶ ψυχήν, τοτὲ μέν μοι δοκεῖς μανθάνειν ὅτι λέγω, καὶ ὁμολογεῖς ὡς εἰδὼς ὅτι ἐγὼ λέγω· ἥκεις δὲ ὀλίγον ὕστερον λέγων ὅτι ἄνθρωποι καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ γεγόνασιν πολῖται ἐν τῇ πόλει, καὶ ἐπειδὰν ἐγὼ ἐρωτῶ οἵτινες, δοκεῖς μοι ὁμοιοτάτους προτείνεσθαι ἀνθρώπους περὶ τὰ πολιτικά, ὥσπερ ἂν εἰ περὶ τὰ γυμναστικὰ ἐμοῦ ἐρωτῶντος οἵτινες ἀγαθοὶ γεγόνασιν ἢ εἰσὶν σωμάτων θεραπευταί, ἔλεγές μοι πάνυ σπουδάζων, Θεαρίων ὁ ἀρτοκόπος καὶ Μίθαικος ὁ τὴν ὀψοποιίαν συγγεγραφὼς τὴν Σικελικὴν καὶ Σάραμβος ὁ κάπηλος, ὅτι οὗτοι θαυμάσιοι γεγόνασιν σωμάτων θεραπευταί, ὁ μὲν ἄρτους θαυμαστοὺς παρασκευάζων, ὁ δὲ ὄψον, ὁ δὲ οἶνον.
That these very same things are true also regarding the soul, you seem to me at one time to understand when I say so, and you agree as if you knew what I mean; but a little later you come saying that good and noble citizens have arisen in the city, and when I ask who they are, you seem to me to put forward men in political affairs in just the same way as if, when I asked about gymnastics who have been or are good caretakers of bodies, you were to say to me in all seriousness, Thearion the baker, and Mithaecus who wrote the Sicilian cookery book, and Sarambus the retail dealer, that these have been wonderful caretakers of bodies, the one providing wonderful loaves, the other food, and the other wine.
ἴσως ἂν οὖν ἠγανάκτεις, εἴ σοι ἔλεγον ἐγὼ ὅτι Ἄνθρωπε, ἐπαΐεις οὐδὲν περὶ γυμναστικῆς· διακόνους μοι λέγεις καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν παρασκευαστὰς ἀνθρώπους, οὐκ ἐπαΐοντας καλὸν κἀγαθὸν οὐδὲν περὶ αὐτῶν, οἵ, ἂν οὕτω τύχωσιν, ἐμπλήσαντες καὶ παχύναντες τὰ σώματα τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ἐπαινούμενοι ὑπʼ αὐτῶν, προσαπολοῦσιν αὐτῶν καὶ τὰς ἀρχαίας σάρκας· οἱ δʼ αὖ διʼ ἀπειρίαν οὐ τοὺς ἑστιῶντας αἰτιάσονται τῶν νόσων αἰτίους εἶναι καὶ τῆς ἀποβολῆς τῶν ἀρχαίων σαρκῶν, ἀλλʼ οἳ ἂν αὐτοῖς τύχωσι τότε παρόντες καὶ συμβουλεύοντές τι, ὅταν δὴ αὐτοῖς ἥκῃ ἡ τότε πλησμονὴ νόσον φέρουσα συχνῷ ὕστερον χρόνῳ, ἅτε ἄνευ τοῦ ὑγιεινοῦ γεγονυῖα, τούτους αἰτιάσονται καὶ ψέξουσιν καὶ κακόν τι ποιήσουσιν, ἂν οἷοί τʼ ὦσι, τοὺς δὲ προτέρους ἐκείνους καὶ αἰτίους τῶν κακῶν ἐγκωμιάσουσιν.
Perhaps, then, you would be angry if I said to you, "My friend, you understand nothing of gymnastics; you are telling me of servants and providers of desires, men who understand nothing noble and good about them, who, if it so happens, after filling and fattening the bodies of men and being praised by them, will destroy also their original flesh in addition." And they, in turn, through inexperience, will not blame those who feasted them as being the causes of their diseases and of the loss of their original flesh, but whoever happen to be present with them at that time and advising them of something, when indeed that surfeit of that time brings disease upon them a long time afterwards, because it was done without regard to health, these they will blame and censure and do some harm to, if they are able, while those former ones who were the causes of their evils they will praise.
καὶ σὺ νῦν, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ὁμοιότατον τούτῳ ἐργάζῃ· ἐγκωμιάζεις ἀνθρώπους, οἳ τούτους εἱστιάκασιν εὐωχοῦντες ὧν ἐπεθύμουν.
And you now, Callicles, are doing something very similar to this; you are praising men who have feasted these citizens, entertaining them with what they desired.
§519ΣΩ. καί φασι μεγάλην τὴν πόλιν πεποιηκέναι αὐτούς· ὅτι δὲ οἰδεῖ καὶ ὕπουλός ἐστιν διʼ ἐκείνους τοὺς παλαιούς, οὐκ αἰσθάνονται.
SOCRATES: And people say that they have made the city great; but that it is swollen and festering because of those ancient leaders, they do not perceive.
ἄνευ γὰρ σωφροσύνης καὶ δικαιοσύνης λιμένων καὶ νεωρίων καὶ τειχῶν καὶ φόρων καὶ τοιούτων φλυαριῶν ἐμπεπλήκασι τὴν πόλιν·
For without temperance and justice, they have filled the city with harbors, dockyards, walls, revenues, and such nonsense.
ὅταν οὖν ἔλθῃ ἡ καταβολὴ αὕτη τῆς ἀσθενείας, τοὺς τότε παρόντας αἰτιάσονται συμβούλους, Θεμιστοκλέα δὲ καὶ Κίμωνα καὶ Περικλέα ἐγκωμιάσουσιν, τοὺς αἰτίους τῶν κακῶν·
Therefore, when the fit of sickness comes, they will blame their advisers of that time, but will praise Themistocles, Cimon, and Pericles, who were the causes of their evils.
σοῦ δὲ ἴσως ἐπιλήψονται, ἐὰν μὴ εὐλαβῇ, καὶ τοῦ ἐμοῦ ἑταίρου Ἀλκιβιάδου, ὅταν καὶ τὰ ἀρχαῖα προσαπολλύωσι πρὸς οἷς ἐκτήσαντο, οὐκ αἰτίων ὄντων τῶν κακῶν ἀλλʼ ἴσως συναιτίων.
And they will perhaps lay hold of you, if you are not careful, and of my companion Alcibiades, when they lose also their original possessions in addition to what they acquired, though you are not the causes of their evils, but perhaps only joint-causes.
καίτοι ἔγωγε ἀνόητον πρᾶγμα καὶ νῦν ὁρῶ γιγνόμενον καὶ ἀκούω τῶν παλαιῶν ἀνδρῶν πέρι.
And yet I see a foolish thing happening even now, and I hear of it regarding the men of old.
αἰσθάνομαι γάρ, ὅταν ἡ πόλις τινὰ τῶν πολιτικῶν ἀνδρῶν μεταχειρίζηται ὡς ἀδικοῦντα, ἀγανακτούντων καὶ σχετλιαζόντων ὡς δεινὰ πάσχουσι· πολλὰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ τὴν πόλιν πεποιηκότες ἄρα ἀδίκως ὑπʼ αὐτῆς ἀπόλλυνται, ὡς ὁ τούτων λόγος.
For I perceive, whenever the city treats any of its statesmen as wrongdoers, that they are angry and complain bitterly that they are suffering outrage; after having done many good things for the city, they are then unjustly destroyed by it, as their story goes.
τὸ δὲ ὅλον ψεῦδός ἐστιν· προστάτης γὰρ πόλεως οὐδʼ ἂν εἷς ποτε ἀδίκως ἀπόλοιτο ὑπʼ αὐτῆς τῆς πόλεως ἧς προστατεῖ.
But the whole thing is a lie; for no leader of a city could ever be unjustly destroyed by the very city of which he is the leader.
κινδυνεύει γὰρ ταὐτὸν εἶναι, ὅσοι τε πολιτικοὶ προσποιοῦνται εἶναι καὶ ὅσοι σοφισταί.
For it turns out to be the same with those who pretend to be statesmen and those who pretend to be sophists.
καὶ γὰρ οἱ σοφισταί, τἆλλα σοφοὶ ὄντες, τοῦτο ἄτοπον ἐργάζονται πρᾶγμα· φάσκοντες γὰρ ἀρετῆς διδάσκαλοι εἶναι πολλάκις κατηγοροῦσιν τῶν μαθητῶν ὡς ἀδικοῦσι σφᾶς, τούς τε μισθοὺς ἀποστεροῦντες καὶ ἄλλην χάριν οὐκ ἀποδιδόντες, εὖ παθόντες ὑπʼ αὐτῶν.
For indeed the sophists, wise as they are in other things, do this absurd thing: claiming to be teachers of virtue, they often accuse their disciples of wronging them, by withholding their fees and returning no other gratitude, though they have received benefits from them.
καὶ τούτου τοῦ λόγου τί ἂν ἀλογώτερον εἴη πρᾶγμα, ἀνθρώπους ἀγαθοὺς καὶ δικαίους γενομένους, ἐξαιρεθέντας μὲν ἀδικίαν ὑπὸ τοῦ διδασκάλου, σχόντας δὲ δικαιοσύνην, ἀδικεῖν τούτῳ ᾧ οὐκ ἔχουσιν;
And what could be a more unreasonable thing than this argument: that men who have become good and just, having had their injustice removed by their teacher and having acquired justice, should do injustice with that which they do not possess?
οὐ δοκεῖ σοι τοῦτο ἄτοπον εἶναι, ὦ ἑταῖρε;
Does this not seem absurd to you, my companion?
ὡς ἀληθῶς δημηγορεῖν με ἠνάγκασας, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, οὐκ ἐθέλων ἀποκρίνεσθαι.
You have truly forced me to harangue like a demagogue, Callicles, because you do not wish to answer.
ΚΑΛ. σὺ δʼ οὐκ ἂν οἷός τʼ εἴης λέγειν, εἰ μή τίς σοι ἀποκρίνοιτο;
CALLICLES: And you, could you not speak unless someone answered you?
ΣΩ. ἔοικά γε· νῦν γοῦν συχνοὺς τείνω τῶν λόγων, ἐπειδή μοι οὐκ ἐθέλεις ἀποκρίνεσθαι.
SOCRATES: It seems I can; at any rate, I am now spinning out long speeches since you do not wish to answer.
ἀλλʼ, ὠγαθέ, εἰπὲ πρὸς Φιλίου, οὐ δοκεῖ σοι ἄλογον εἶναι ἀγαθὸν φάσκοντα πεποιηκέναι τινὰ μέμφεσθαι τούτῳ ὅτι ὑφʼ ἑαυτοῦ ἀγαθὸς γεγονώς τε καὶ ὢν ἔπειτα πονηρός ἐστιν;
But, my good friend, tell me, in the name of friendship, does it not seem unreasonable to you that a person claiming to have made someone good should find fault with him because, having become and being good through him, he is afterwards bad?
ΚΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
CALLICLES: It does seem so to me.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἀκούεις τοιαῦτα λεγόντων τῶν φασκόντων παιδεύειν ἀνθρώπους εἰς ἀρετήν;
SOCRATES: Do you not then hear such things from those who claim to educate men in virtue?