§502ΣΩ. τί δὲ ἡ τῶν χορῶν διδασκαλία καὶ ἡ τῶν διθυράμβων ποίησις;
SOCRATES: And what about the training of choruses and the poetry of dithyrambs?
οὐ τοιαύτη τίς σοι καταφαίνεται;
Does not some such thing appear to you to be of this kind?
ἢ ἡγῇ τι φροντίζειν Κινησίαν τὸν Μέλητος, ὅπως ἐρεῖ τι τοιοῦτον ὅθεν ἂν οἱ ἀκούοντες βελτίους γίγνοιντο, ἢ ὅτι μέλλει χαριεῖσθαι τῷ ὄχλῳ τῶν θεατῶν;
Or do you think that Cinesias, the son of Meles, cares at all about saying something of such a kind from which the listeners might become better, or rather that he is about to gratify the crowd of spectators?
ΚΑΛ. δῆλον δὴ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, Κινησίου γε πέρι.
CALLICLES: This is certainly clear, Socrates, at least concerning Cinesias.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ Μέλης;
SOCRATES: And what about his father, Meles?
ἦ πρὸς τὸ βέλτιστον βλέπων ἐδόκει σοι κιθαρῳδεῖν;
Did he seem to you to play the cithara and sing looking toward what is best?
ἢ ἐκεῖνος μὲν οὐδὲ πρὸς τὸ ἥδιστον;
Or did he not look even toward what is most pleasant?
ἠνία γὰρ ᾁδων τοὺς θεατάς.
For he used to annoy the spectators by his singing.
ἀλλὰ δὴ σκόπει· οὐχὶ ἥ τε κιθαρῳδικὴ δοκεῖ σοι πᾶσα καὶ ἡ τῶν διθυράμβων ποίησις ἡδονῆς χάριν ηὑρῆσθαι;
But consider: do you not think that all cithara-playing and the poetry of dithyrambs have been invented for the sake of pleasure?
ΚΑΛ. ἔμοιγε.
CALLICLES: I do.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ δὴ ἡ σεμνὴ αὕτη καὶ θαυμαστή, ἡ τῆς τραγῳδίας ποίησις, ἐφʼ ᾧ ἐσπούδακεν;
SOCRATES: And what indeed about this stately and wonderful poetry, that of tragedy, for what is it zealous?
πότερόν ἐστιν αὐτῆς τὸ ἐπιχείρημα καὶ ἡ σπουδή, ὡς σοὶ δοκεῖ, χαρίζεσθαι τοῖς θεαταῖς μόνον, ἢ καὶ διαμάχεσθαι, ἐάν τι αὐτοῖς ἡδὺ μὲν ᾖ καὶ κεχαρισμένον, πονηρὸν δέ, ὅπως τοῦτο μὲν μὴ ἐρεῖ, εἰ δέ τι τυγχάνει ἀηδὲς καὶ ὠφέλιμον, τοῦτο δὲ καὶ λέξει καὶ ᾁσεται, ἐάντε χαίρωσιν ἐάντε μή;
Is its endeavor and zeal, as it seems to you, only to gratify the spectators, or also to fight against them, if something is pleasant and gratifying to them but bad, so as not to say this, and if something happens to be unpleasant and beneficial, to say and sing this, whether they enjoy it or not?
ποτέρως σοι δοκεῖ παρεσκευάσθαι ἡ τῶν τραγῳδιῶν ποίησις;
In which of the two ways do you think the poetry of tragedies is prepared?
ΚΑΛ. δῆλον δὴ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι πρὸς τὴν ἡδονὴν μᾶλλον ὥρμηται καὶ τὸ χαρίζεσθαι τοῖς θεαταῖς.
CALLICLES: This is certainly clear, Socrates, that it is more impelled toward pleasure and gratifying the spectators.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὸ τοιοῦτον, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἔφαμεν νυνδὴ κολακείαν εἶναι;
SOCRATES: And did we not say just now, Callicles, that such a thing is flattery?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Yes, indeed.
ΣΩ. φέρε δή, εἴ τις περιέλοι τῆς ποιήσεως πάσης τό τε μέλος καὶ τὸν ῥυθμὸν καὶ τὸ μέτρον, ἄλλο τι ἢ λόγοι γίγνονται τὸ λειπόμενον;
SOCRATES: Come then, if one should strip all poetry of its melody, rhythm, and meter, does anything else remain than speech?
ΚΑΛ. ἀνάγκη.
CALLICLES: Necessarily.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν πρὸς πολὺν ὄχλον καὶ δῆμον οὗτοι λέγονται οἱ λόγοι;
SOCRATES: And is not this speech spoken to a large crowd and people?
ΚΑΛ. φημί.
CALLICLES: Yes.
ΣΩ. δημηγορία ἄρα τίς ἐστιν ἡ ποιητική.
SOCRATES: Poetry, then, is a kind of popular speech.
ΚΑΛ. φαίνεται.
CALLICLES: So it appears.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ῥητορικὴ δημηγορία ἂν εἴη· ἢ οὐ ῥητορεύειν δοκοῦσί σοι οἱ ποιηταὶ ἐν τοῖς θεάτροις;
SOCRATES: Then it would be a rhetorical popular speech; or do the poets not seem to you to practice rhetoric in the theaters?
ΚΑΛ. ἔμοιγε.
CALLICLES: They do to me.
ΣΩ. νῦν ἄρα ἡμεῖς ηὑρήκαμεν ῥητορικήν τινα πρὸς δῆμον τοιοῦτον οἷον παίδων τε ὁμοῦ καὶ γυναικῶν καὶ ἀνδρῶν, καὶ δούλων καὶ ἐλευθέρων, ἣν οὐ πάνυ ἀγάμεθα· κολακικὴν γὰρ αὐτήν φαμεν εἶναι.
SOCRATES: Now, then, we have found a certain rhetoric directed to such a people as is composed of children, women, and men, both slaves and free, which we do not altogether admire; for we say it is of a flattering kind.
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Yes, indeed.
ΣΩ. εἶεν·
SOCRATES: Very well.
τί δὲ ἡ πρὸς τὸν Ἀθηναίων δῆμον ῥητορικὴ καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους τοὺς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν δήμους τοὺς τῶν ἐλευθέρων ἀνδρῶν, τί ποτε ἡμῖν αὕτη ἐστίν;
And what about the rhetoric directed to the Athenian people and the other peoples in the cities who are composed of free men, what in the world is this to us?
πότερόν σοι δοκοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ βέλτιστον ἀεὶ λέγειν οἱ ῥήτορες, τούτου στοχαζόμενοι, ὅπως οἱ πολῖται ὡς βέλτιστοι ἔσονται διὰ τοὺς αὑτῶν λόγους, ἢ καὶ οὗτοι πρὸς τὸ χαρίζεσθαι τοῖς πολίταις ὡρμημένοι, καὶ ἕνεκα τοῦ ἰδίου τοῦ αὑτῶν ὀλιγωροῦντες τοῦ κοινοῦ, ὥσπερ παισὶ προσομιλοῦσι τοῖς δήμοις, χαρίζεσθαι αὐτοῖς πειρώμενοι μόνον, εἰ δέ γε βελτίους ἔσονται ἢ χείρους διὰ ταῦτα, οὐδὲν φροντίζουσιν;
Do the rhetoricians seem to you to speak always looking to what is best, aiming at this, that the citizens will be as good as possible through their speeches, or are these too impelled toward gratifying the citizens, neglecting the common good for the sake of their own private interest, associating with the peoples as if they were children, trying only to gratify them, but whether they will be better or worse through these things, caring not at all?
§503ΚΑΛ. οὐχ ἁπλοῦν ἔτι τοῦτο ἐρωτᾷς· εἰσὶ μὲν γὰρ οἳ κηδόμενοι τῶν πολιτῶν λέγουσιν ἃ λέγουσιν, εἰσὶν δὲ καὶ οἵους σὺ λέγεις.
CALLICLES: This question you ask is no longer simple; for there are some who say what they say because they care for the citizens, but there are also such as those you speak of.
ΣΩ. ἐξαρκεῖ.
SOCRATES: That is enough.
εἰ γὰρ καὶ τοῦτό ἐστι διπλοῦν, τὸ μὲν ἕτερόν που τούτου κολακεία ἂν εἴη καὶ αἰσχρὰ δημηγορία, τὸ δʼ ἕτερον καλόν, τὸ παρασκευάζειν ὅπως ὡς βέλτισται ἔσονται τῶν πολιτῶν αἱ ψυχαί, καὶ διαμάχεσθαι λέγοντα τὰ βέλτιστα, εἴτε ἡδίω εἴτε ἀηδέστερα ἔσται τοῖς ἀκούουσιν. ἀλλʼ οὐ πώποτε σὺ ταύτην εἶδες τὴν ῥητορικήν·
For if this too is twofold, one of them, I suppose, would be flattery and shameful popular speech, whereas the other is beautiful—preparing so that the souls of the citizens will be as good as possible, and fighting to say what is best, whether it will be more pleasant or more unpleasant to the listeners.
ἢ εἴ τινα ἔχεις τῶν ῥητόρων τοιοῦτον εἰπεῖν, τί οὐχὶ καὶ ἐμοὶ αὐτὸν ἔφρασας τίς ἐστιν;
But you have never yet seen this rhetoric; or if you can mention any such person among the rhetoricians, why did you not tell me who he is?
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ Δία οὐκ ἔχω ἔγωγέ σοι εἰπεῖν τῶν γε νῦν ῥητόρων οὐδένα.
CALLICLES: But, by Zeus, I have no one to tell you among the current rhetoricians.
ΣΩ. τί δέ;
SOCRATES: Well, what about the ancient ones?
τῶν παλαιῶν ἔχεις τινὰ εἰπεῖν διʼ ὅντινα αἰτίαν ἔχουσιν Ἀθηναῖοι βελτίους γεγονέναι, ἐπειδὴ ἐκεῖνος ἤρξατο δημηγορεῖν, ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν χρόνῳ χείρους ὄντες;
Can you mention anyone because of whom the Athenians are said to have become better, after that man began to speak in public, whereas they had been worse in the time before?
ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ οὐκ οἶδα τίς ἐστιν οὗτος.
For I, for my part, do not know who this is.
ΚΑΛ. τί δέ;
CALLICLES: What?
Θεμιστοκλέα οὐκ ἀκούεις ἄνδρα ἀγαθὸν γεγονότα καὶ Κίμωνα καὶ Μιλτιάδην καὶ Περικλέα τουτονὶ τὸν νεωστὶ τετελευτηκότα, οὗ καὶ σὺ ἀκήκοας;
Do you not hear that Themistocles was a good man, and Cimon, and Miltiades, and Pericles here who has recently died, whom you also have heard?
ΣΩ. εἰ ἔστιν γε, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἣν πρότερον σὺ ἔλεγες ἀρετήν, ἀληθής, τὸ τὰς ἐπιθυμίας ἀποπιμπλάναι καὶ τὰς αὑτοῦ καὶ τὰς τῶν ἄλλων·
SOCRATES: If indeed, Callicles, that which you previously called virtue is true—namely, to satisfy one’s desires, both one’s own and those of others.
εἰ δὲ μὴ τοῦτο, ἀλλʼ ὅπερ ἐν τῷ ὑστέρῳ λόγῳ ἠναγκάσθημεν ἡμεῖς ὁμολογεῖν—ὅτι αἳ μὲν τῶν ἐπιθυμιῶν πληρούμεναι βελτίω ποιοῦσι τὸν ἄνθρωπον, ταύτας μὲν ἀποτελεῖν, αἳ δὲ χείρω, μή, τοῦτο δὲ τέχνη τις εἴη—τοιοῦτον ἄνδρα τούτων τινὰ οὐκ ἔχω ἔγωγε πῶς εἴπω.
But if it is not this, but what we were forced to agree upon in the later argument—that we should fulfill those desires which make a man better when satisfied, but not those which make him worse, and that this is a certain craft—I, for my part, do not know how I can say that any of these men was such.
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἐὰν ζητῇς καλῶς, εὑρήσεις.
CALLICLES: But if you search well, you will find one.
ΣΩ. ἴδωμεν δὴ οὑτωσὶ ἀτρέμα σκοπούμενοι εἴ τις τούτων τοιοῦτος γέγονεν·
SOCRATES: Let us see then, looking at it quietly in this way, if any of these has been such.
φέρε γάρ, ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ βέλτιστον λέγων, ἃ ἂν λέγῃ ἄλλο τι οὐκ εἰκῇ ἐρεῖ, ἀλλʼ ἀποβλέπων πρός τι;
For come, the good man who speaks looking toward what is best, whatever he says, will he not say it not at random, but looking toward something?
ὥσπερ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πάντες δημιουργοὶ πρὸς τὸ αὑτῶν ἔργον ἕκαστος οὐκ εἰκῇ ἐκλεγόμενος προσφέρει ἀλλʼ ὅπως ἂν εἶδός τι αὐτῷ σχῇ τοῦτο ὃ ἐργάζεται.
Just as all the other craftsmen, each looking toward his own work, does not select and apply at random, but so that the thing he is working on may have a certain form.