§482ΣΩ. τοῖς γὰρ τῶν παιδικῶν βουλεύμασίν τε καὶ λόγοις οὐχ οἷός τʼ εἶ ἐναντιοῦσθαι, ὥστε, εἴ τίς σου λέγοντος ἑκάστοτε ἃ διὰ τούτους λέγεις θαυμάζοι ὡς ἄτοπά ἐστιν, ἴσως εἴποις ἂν αὐτῷ, εἰ βούλοιο τἀληθῆ λέγειν, ὅτι εἰ μή τις παύσει τὰ σὰ παιδικὰ τούτων τῶν λόγων, οὐδὲ σὺ παύσῃ ποτὲ ταῦτα λέγων.
SOCRATES: For you are unable to oppose the wishes and words of your beloveds; so that, if on each occasion while you are speaking someone should wonder at how strange the things you say because of them are, you would perhaps say to him, if you wished to speak the truth, that unless someone stops your beloved from speaking these words, you yourself will never stop saying them.
νόμιζε τοίνυν καὶ παρʼ ἐμοῦ χρῆναι ἕτερα τοιαῦτα ἀκούειν, καὶ μὴ θαύμαζε ὅτι ἐγὼ ταῦτα λέγω, ἀλλὰ τὴν φιλοσοφίαν, τὰ ἐμὰ παιδικά, παῦσον ταῦτα λέγουσαν.
Think then that you must hear other such things from me too, and do not wonder that I say these things, but stop philosophy, my beloved, from saying them.
λέγει γάρ, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε, ἃ νῦν ἐμοῦ ἀκούεις, καί μοί ἐστιν τῶν ἑτέρων παιδικῶν πολὺ ἧττον ἔμπληκτος· ὁ μὲν γὰρ Κλεινίειος οὗτος ἄλλοτε ἄλλων ἐστὶ λόγων, ἡ δὲ φιλοσοφία ἀεὶ τῶν αὐτῶν, λέγει δὲ ἃ σὺ νῦν θαυμάζεις, παρῆσθα δὲ καὶ αὐτὸς λεγομένοις.
For she speaks, my dear friend, what you now hear from me, and she is far less fickle to me than my other beloved; for this son of Cleinias says different things at different times, but philosophy always says the same things, and she says what you are now wondering at, and you yourself were present when they were spoken.
ἢ οὖν ἐκείνην ἐξέλεγξον, ὅπερ ἄρτι ἔλεγον, ὡς οὐ τὸ ἀδικεῖν ἐστιν καὶ ἀδικοῦντα δίκην μὴ διδόναι ἁπάντων ἔσχατον κακῶν· ἢ εἰ τοῦτο ἐάσεις ἀνέλεγκτον, μὰ τὸν κύνα τὸν Αἰγυπτίων θεόν, οὔ σοι ὁμολογήσει Καλλικλῆς, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἀλλὰ διαφωνήσει ἐν ἅπαντι τῷ βίῳ.
Either then refute her, as I was just saying, showing that doing injustice and, when doing so, not paying the penalty is not the worst of all evils; or if you leave this unrefuted, by the dog, the god of the Egyptians, Callicles will not agree with you, Callicles, but will be in discord with you throughout his whole life.
καίτοι ἔγωγε οἶμαι, ὦ βέλτιστε, καὶ τὴν λύραν μοι κρεῖττον εἶναι ἀνάρμοστόν τε καὶ διαφωνεῖν, καὶ χορὸν ᾧ χορηγοίην, καὶ πλείστους ἀνθρώπους μὴ ὁμολογεῖν μοι ἀλλʼ ἐναντία λέγειν μᾶλλον ἢ ἕνα ὄντα ἐμὲ ἐμαυτῷ ἀσύμφωνον εἶναι καὶ ἐναντία λέγειν.
And yet I indeed think, my good sir, that it would be better for my lyre to be out of tune and discordant, and a chorus I might lead, and for most people not to agree with me but to say the opposite, rather than for me, being one person, to be inharmonious with myself and say contradictory things.
ΚΑΛ. ὦ Σώκρατες, δοκεῖς νεανιεύεσθαι ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ὡς ἀληθῶς δημηγόρος ὤν· καὶ νῦν ταῦτα δημηγορεῖς ταὐτὸν παθόντος Πώλου πάθος ὅπερ Γοργίου κατηγόρει πρὸς σὲ παθεῖν.
CALLICLES: Socrates, you seem to behave like a wild youth in your speeches, being in truth a popular orator; and now you are playing the orator in this way because Polus has experienced the very same thing that he accused Gorgias of experiencing at your hands.
ἔφη γάρ που Γοργίαν ἐρωτώμενον ὑπὸ σοῦ, ἐὰν ἀφίκηται παρʼ αὐτὸν μὴ ἐπιστάμενος τὰ δίκαια ὁ τὴν ῥητορικὴν βουλόμενος μαθεῖν, εἰ διδάξοι αὐτὸν ὁ Γοργίας, αἰσχυνθῆναι αὐτὸν καὶ φάναι διδάξειν διὰ τὸ ἔθος τῶν ἀνθρώπων, ὅτι ἀγανακτοῖεν ἂν εἴ τις μὴ φαίη—διὰ δὴ ταύτην τὴν ὁμολογίαν ἀναγκασθῆναι ἐναντία αὐτὸν αὑτῷ εἰπεῖν, σὲ δὲ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ἀγαπᾶν—καί σου καταγελᾶν, ὥς γέ μοι δοκεῖν ὀρθῶς, τότε· νῦν δὲ πάλιν αὐτὸς ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἔπαθεν.
For he said, I believe, that when Gorgias was asked by you, if someone wishing to learn rhetoric should come to him without knowing what is just, whether Gorgias would teach him, Gorgias was ashamed and said he would teach him because of human custom, since people would be indignant if someone said he would not—and that because of this agreement he was forced to contradict himself, which is exactly what you delight in—and Polus was laughing at you then, as it seems to me, rightly; but now he in turn has experienced this very same thing.
καὶ ἔγωγε κατʼ αὐτὸ τοῦτο οὐκ ἄγαμαι Πῶλον, ὅτι σοι συνεχώρησεν τὸ ἀδικεῖν αἴσχιον εἶναι τοῦ ἀδικεῖσθαι· ἐκ ταύτης γὰρ αὖ τῆς ὁμολογίας αὐτὸς ὑπὸ σοῦ συμποδισθεὶς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ἐπεστομίσθη, αἰσχυνθεὶς ἃ ἐνόει εἰπεῖν.
And I indeed do not admire Polus for this very reason, that he conceded to you that doing injustice is uglier than suffering it; for from this agreement he in turn was tied up by you in the speeches and had his mouth stopped, being ashamed to say what he thought.
σὺ γὰρ τῷ ὄντι, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰς τοιαῦτα ἄγεις φορτικὰ καὶ δημηγορικά, φάσκων τὴν ἀλήθειαν διώκειν, ἃ φύσει μὲν οὐκ ἔστιν καλά, νόμῳ δέ.
For you, Socrates, in truth bring the discussion to such vulgar and popular topics, claiming to pursue the truth, things which are not beautiful by nature, but only by law.
§483ΚΑΛ. ὡς τὰ πολλὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἐναντίʼ ἀλλήλοις ἐστίν, ἥ τε φύσις καὶ ὁ νόμος· ἐὰν οὖν τις αἰσχύνηται καὶ μὴ τολμᾷ λέγειν ἅπερ νοεῖ, ἀναγκάζεται ἐναντία λέγειν.
CALLICLES: And for the most part these are contrary to one another, namely nature and law; if therefore someone is ashamed and does not dare to say what he thinks, he is forced to contradict himself.
ὃ δὴ καὶ σὺ τοῦτο τὸ σοφὸν κατανενοηκὼς κακουργεῖς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις, ἐὰν μέν τις κατὰ νόμον λέγῃ, κατὰ φύσιν ὑπερωτῶν, ἐὰν δὲ τὰ τῆς φύσεως, τὰ τοῦ νόμου.
And you, having noticed this clever trick, play dirty in the discussions: if someone speaks according to law, you ask questions according to nature, and if he speaks of the things of nature, you ask of the things of law.
ὥσπερ αὐτίκα ἐν τούτοις, τῷ ἀδικεῖν τε καὶ τῷ ἀδικεῖσθαι, Πώλου τὸ κατὰ νόμον αἴσχιον λέγοντος, σὺ τὸν λόγον ἐδιώκαθες κατὰ φύσιν.
Just as just now in these matters, of doing injustice and suffering injustice, when Polus said that doing injustice is uglier according to law, you pursued the argument according to nature.
φύσει μὲν γὰρ πᾶν αἴσχιόν ἐστιν ὅπερ καὶ κάκιον, τὸ ἀδικεῖσθαι, νόμῳ δὲ τὸ ἀδικεῖν.
For by nature everything that is also worse is uglier, namely suffering injustice, but by law doing injustice is uglier.
οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀνδρὸς τοῦτό γʼ ἐστὶν τὸ πάθημα, τὸ ἀδικεῖσθαι, ἀλλʼ ἀνδραπόδου τινὸς ᾧ κρεῖττόν ἐστιν τεθνάναι ἢ ζῆν, ὅστις ἀδικούμενος καὶ προπηλακιζόμενος μὴ οἷός τέ ἐστιν αὐτὸς αὑτῷ βοηθεῖν μηδὲ ἄλλῳ οὗ ἂν κήδηται.
For suffering injustice is not even the experience of a man, but of some slave for whom it is better to die than to live, who when treated unjustly and insulted is not able to help himself nor anyone else he cares for.
ἀλλʼ οἶμαι οἱ τιθέμενοι τοὺς νόμους οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ἄνθρωποί εἰσιν καὶ οἱ πολλοί.
But I think those who make the laws are the weak human beings and the many.
πρὸς αὑτοὺς οὖν καὶ τὸ αὑτοῖς συμφέρον τούς τε νόμους τίθενται καὶ τοὺς ἐπαίνους ἐπαινοῦσιν καὶ τοὺς ψόγους ψέγουσιν· ἐκφοβοῦντες τοὺς ἐρρωμενεστέρους τῶν ἀνθρώπων καὶ δυνατοὺς ὄντας πλέον ἔχειν, ἵνα μὴ αὐτῶν πλέον ἔχωσιν, λέγουσιν ὡς αἰσχρὸν καὶ ἄδικον τὸ πλεονεκτεῖν, καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν τὸ ἀδικεῖν, τὸ πλέον τῶν ἄλλων ζητεῖν ἔχειν· ἀγαπῶσι γὰρ οἶμαι αὐτοὶ ἂν τὸ ἴσον ἔχωσιν φαυλότεροι ὄντες.
They therefore make the laws with a view to themselves and their own advantage, and they bestow praises and cast blames; terrifying the stronger among men and those who are able to have more, so that they may not have more than themselves, they say that having more is ugly and unjust, and that this is doing injustice, namely seeking to have more than others; for they are satisfied, I think, if they themselves have an equal share, being inferior.
διὰ ταῦτα δὴ νόμῳ μὲν τοῦτο ἄδικον καὶ αἰσχρὸν λέγεται, τὸ πλέον ζητεῖν ἔχειν τῶν πολλῶν, καὶ ἀδικεῖν αὐτὸ καλοῦσιν· ἡ δέ γε οἶμαι φύσις αὐτὴ ἀποφαίνει αὐτό, ὅτι δίκαιόν ἐστιν τὸν ἀμείνω τοῦ χείρονος πλέον ἔχειν καὶ τὸν δυνατώτερον τοῦ ἀδυνατωτέρου.
For these reasons then, seeking to have more than the many is called unjust and ugly by law, and they call it doing injustice; but nature itself, I think, shows this, that it is just for the better man to have more than the worse, and the more powerful than the less powerful.
δηλοῖ δὲ ταῦτα πολλαχοῦ ὅτι οὕτως ἔχει, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἄλλοις ζῴοις καὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐν ὅλαις ταῖς πόλεσι καὶ τοῖς γένεσιν, ὅτι οὕτω τὸ δίκαιον κέκριται, τὸν κρείττω τοῦ ἥττονος ἄρχειν καὶ πλέον ἔχειν.
And this is shown in many places to be so, both among other animals and among human beings in whole cities and races, that justice has been judged in this way, for the stronger to rule the weaker and to have more.
ἐπεὶ ποίῳ δικαίῳ χρώμενος Ξέρξης ἐπὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα ἐστράτευσεν ἢ ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ Σκύθας;
For by what kind of justice did Xerxes march against Greece, or his father against the Scythians?
ἢ ἄλλα μυρία ἄν τις ἔχοι τοιαῦτα λέγειν.
Or ten thousand other such things that one could mention.
ἀλλʼ οἶμαι οὗτοι κατὰ φύσιν τὴν τοῦ δικαίου ταῦτα πράττουσιν, καὶ ναὶ μὰ Δία κατὰ νόμον γε τὸν τῆς φύσεως, οὐ μέντοι ἴσως κατὰ τοῦτον ὃν ἡμεῖς τιθέμεθα·
But I think these men do these things according to the nature of justice, and yes, by Zeus, according to the law of nature, though certainly not perhaps according to this one which we establish.