§455ΣΩ. ἡ ῥητορικὴ ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικεν, πειθοῦς δημιουργός ἐστιν πιστευτικῆς ἀλλʼ οὐ διδασκαλικῆς περὶ τὸ δίκαιόν τε καὶ ἄδικον.
ΣΩ. Rhetoric, then, as it seems, is a producer of belief-inspiring persuasion, but not of instructional persuasion, concerning what is just and unjust. ΓΟΡ.
ΓΟΡ. ναί. ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα διδασκαλικὸς ὁ ῥήτωρ ἐστὶν δικαστηρίων τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὄχλων δικαίων τε πέρι καὶ ἀδίκων, ἀλλὰ πιστικὸς μόνον· οὐ γὰρ δήπου ὄχλον γʼ ἂν δύναιτο τοσοῦτον ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ διδάξαι οὕτω μεγάλα πράγματα.
Yes. ΣΩ. Nor, then, is the rhetorician an instructor of law courts and other crowds concerning just and unjust things, but only a creator of belief; for surely he could not teach so large a crowd such great matters in a short time. ΓΟΡ.
ΓΟΡ. οὐ δῆτα.
Certainly not. ΣΩ.
ΣΩ. φέρε δή, ἴδωμεν τί ποτε καὶ λέγομεν περὶ τῆς ῥητορικῆς· ἐγὼ μὲν γάρ τοι οὐδʼ αὐτός πω δύναμαι κατανοῆσαι ὅτι λέγω.
Come now, let us see what on earth we are saying about rhetoric; for indeed, even I myself am not yet able to understand what I am saying.
ὅταν περὶ ἰατρῶν αἱρέσεως ᾖ τῇ πόλει σύλλογος ἢ περὶ ναυπηγῶν ἢ περὶ ἄλλου τινὸς δημιουργικοῦ ἔθνους, ἄλλο τι ἢ τότε ὁ ῥητορικὸς οὐ συμβουλεύσει;
When there is an assembly in the city concerning the choice of physicians, or shipbuilders, or any other professional class, is it not the case that the rhetorician will then not advise?
δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι ἐν ἑκάστῃ αἱρέσει τὸν τεχνικώτατον δεῖ αἱρεῖσθαι.
For it is clear that in each choice, one must choose the most skilled expert.
οὐδʼ ὅταν τειχῶν περὶ οἰκοδομήσεως ἢ λιμένων κατασκευῆς ἢ νεωρίων, ἀλλʼ οἱ ἀρχιτέκτονες· οὐδʼ αὖ ὅταν στρατηγῶν αἱρέσεως πέρι ἢ τάξεώς τινος πρὸς πολεμίους ἢ χωρίων καταλήψεως συμβουλὴ ᾖ, ἀλλʼ οἱ στρατηγικοὶ τότε συμβουλεύσουσιν, οἱ ῥητορικοὶ δὲ οὔ·
Nor when it is about the building of walls or the construction of harbors or shipyards, but the architects will; nor again, when there is consultation about the choice of generals, or some tactical arrangement against enemies, or the capture of positions, but the military experts will advise then, and the rhetoricians will not.
ἢ πῶς λέγεις, ὦ Γοργία, τὰ τοιαῦτα;
Or how do you say such things, Gorgias?
ἐπειδὴ γὰρ αὐτός τε φῂς ῥήτωρ εἶναι καὶ ἄλλους ποιεῖν ῥητορικούς, εὖ ἔχει τὰ τῆς σῆς τέχνης παρὰ σοῦ πυνθάνεσθαι.
For since you yourself claim to be a rhetorician and to make others rhetoricians, it is well to learn the matters of your art from you.
καὶ ἐμὲ νῦν νόμισον καὶ τὸ σὸν σπεύδειν· ἴσως γὰρ καὶ τυγχάνει τις τῶν ἔνδον ὄντων μαθητής σου βουλόμενος γενέσθαι, ὡς ἐγώ τινας σχεδὸν καὶ συχνοὺς αἰσθάνομαι, οἳ ἴσως αἰσχύνοιντʼ ἄν σε ἀνερέσθαι.
And think of me now as promoting your interest as well; for perhaps some of those inside happens to wish to become your pupil—as I perceive some, and indeed quite a few, who would perhaps be ashamed to ask you.
ὑπʼ ἐμοῦ οὖν ἀνερωτώμενος νόμισον καὶ ὑπʼ ἐκείνων ἀνερωτᾶσθαι· τί ἡμῖν, ὦ Γοργία, ἔσται, ἐάν σοι συνῶμεν;
So when you are questioned by me, think that you are being questioned by them as well: "What will we get, Gorgias, if we associate with you?
περὶ τίνων τῇ πόλει συμβουλεύειν οἷοί τε ἐσόμεθα;
About what things will we be able to advise the city?
πότερον περὶ δικαίου μόνον καὶ ἀδίκου ἢ καὶ περὶ ὧν νυνδὴ Σωκράτης ἔλεγεν; πειρῶ οὖν αὐτοῖς ἀποκρίνεσθαι.
Will it be only about the just and the unjust, or also about those things Socrates was just speaking of?" Try, then, to answer them. ΓΟΡ.
ΓΟΡ. ἀλλʼ ἐγώ σοι πειράσομαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, σαφῶς ἀποκαλύψαι τὴν τῆς ῥητορικῆς δύναμιν ἅπασαν· αὐτὸς γὰρ καλῶς ὑφηγήσω.
Well, Socrates, I will try to reveal to you clearly the entire power of rhetoric; for you yourself have guided me well.
οἶσθα γὰρ δήπου ὅτι τὰ νεώρια ταῦτα καὶ τὰ τείχη τὰ Ἀθηναίων καὶ ἡ τῶν λιμένων κατασκευὴ ἐκ τῆς Θεμιστοκλέους συμβουλῆς γέγονεν, τὰ δʼ ἐκ τῆς Περικλέους ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐκ τῶν δημιουργῶν.
For you know, of course, that those shipyards and the walls of the Athenians, and the construction of the harbors, arose from the advice of Themistocles, and some from that of Pericles, but not from the craftsmen. ΣΩ.
ΣΩ. λέγεται ταῦτα, ὦ Γοργία, περὶ Θεμιστοκλέους· Περικλέους δὲ καὶ αὐτὸς ἤκουον ὅτε συνεβούλευεν ἡμῖν περὶ τοῦ διὰ μέσου τείχους.
That is what is said, Gorgias, about Themistocles; and I myself heard Pericles when he advised us about the middle wall.
§456ΓΟΡ. καὶ ὅταν γέ τις αἵρεσις ᾖ ὧν νυνδὴ σὺ ἔλεγες, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁρᾷς ὅτι οἱ ῥήτορές εἰσιν οἱ συμβουλεύοντες καὶ οἱ νικῶντες τὰς γνώμας περὶ τούτων.
ΓΟΡ. And whenever there is a choice of those things you were just speaking of, Socrates, you see that the rhetoricians are the ones who advise and who carry their proposals on these matters. ΣΩ.
ΣΩ. ταῦτα καὶ θαυμάζων, ὦ Γοργία, πάλαι ἐρωτῶ τίς ποτε ἡ δύναμίς ἐστιν τῆς ῥητορικῆς.
Gorgias, it is because I marvel at this very thing that I have been asking for a long time what on earth the power of rhetoric is.
δαιμονία γάρ τις ἔμοιγε καταφαίνεται τὸ μέγεθος οὕτω σκοποῦντι.
For to me, as I look at it in this way, its magnitude appears supernatural. ΓΟΡ.
ΓΟΡ. εἰ πάντα γε εἰδείης, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἁπάσας τὰς δυνάμεις συλλαβοῦσα ὑφʼ αὑτῇ ἔχει.
If only you knew everything, Socrates, that it embraces and holds under itself, so to speak, all powers.
μέγα δέ σοι τεκμήριον ἐρῶ· πολλάκις γὰρ ἤδη ἔγωγε μετὰ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ καὶ μετὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἰατρῶν εἰσελθὼν παρά τινα τῶν καμνόντων οὐχὶ ἐθέλοντα ἢ φάρμακον πιεῖν ἢ τεμεῖν ἢ καῦσαι παρασχεῖν τῷ ἰατρῷ, οὐ δυναμένου τοῦ ἰατροῦ πεῖσαι, ἐγὼ ἔπεισα, οὐκ ἄλλῃ τέχνῃ ἢ τῇ ῥητορικῇ.
I will tell you a great proof of this: for already many times I have gone in, with my brother or with other physicians, to some patient who was unwilling to drink medicine or to submit himself to the physician to be cut or cauterized; and when the physician was unable to persuade him, I persuaded him, by no other art than rhetoric.
φημὶ δὲ καὶ εἰς πόλιν ὅπῃ βούλει ἐλθόντα ῥητορικὸν ἄνδρα καὶ ἰατρόν, εἰ δέοι λόγῳ διαγωνίζεσθαι ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ ἢ ἐν ἄλλῳ τινὶ συλλόγῳ ὁπότερον δεῖ αἱρεθῆναι ἰατρόν, οὐδαμοῦ ἂν φανῆναι τὸν ἰατρόν, ἀλλʼ αἱρεθῆναι ἂν τὸν εἰπεῖν δυνατόν, εἰ βούλοιτο.
And I say also that if a rhetorician and a physician were to go to any city you like, and had to contend in speech in the assembly or in some other gathering as to which of the two should be chosen as physician, the physician would appear nowhere, but the one who is able to speak would be chosen, if he wished.
καὶ εἰ πρὸς ἄλλον γε δημιουργὸν ὁντιναοῦν ἀγωνίζοιτο, πείσειεν ἂν αὑτὸν ἑλέσθαι ὁ ῥητορικὸς μᾶλλον ἢ ἄλλος ὁστισοῦν· οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν περὶ ὅτου οὐκ ἂν πιθανώτερον εἴποι ὁ ῥητορικὸς ἢ ἄλλος ὁστισοῦν τῶν δημιουργῶν ἐν πλήθει.
And if he were to contend against any other craftsman whatsoever, the rhetorician would persuade them to choose himself rather than anyone else; for there is nothing about which the rhetorician would not speak more persuasively than any of the other craftsmen before a crowd.
ἡ μὲν οὖν δύναμις τοσαύτη ἐστὶν καὶ τοιαύτη τῆς τέχνης·
Such, then, and so great is the power of this art.
δεῖ μέντοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, τῇ ῥητορικῇ χρῆσθαι ὥσπερ τῇ ἄλλῃ πάσῃ ἀγωνίᾳ.
However, Socrates, one must use rhetoric just like any other competitive skill.
καὶ γὰρ τῇ ἄλλῃ ἀγωνίᾳ οὐ τούτου ἕνεκα δεῖ πρὸς ἅπαντας χρῆσθαι ἀνθρώπους, ὅτι ἔμαθεν πυκτεύειν τε καὶ παγκρατιάζειν καὶ ἐν ὅπλοις μάχεσθαι, ὥστε κρείττων εἶναι καὶ φίλων καὶ ἐχθρῶν, οὐ τούτου ἕνεκα τοὺς φίλους δεῖ τύπτειν οὐδὲ κεντεῖν τε καὶ ἀποκτεινύναι.
For indeed, with any other competitive skill, one must not use it against all people simply because he has learned to box, or to wrestle in the pancratium, or to fight in armor, so as to be superior to both friends and enemies; not for this reason should one strike, stab, or kill one's friends.
οὐδέ γε μὰ Δία ἐάν τις εἰς παλαίστραν φοιτήσας εὖ ἔχων τὸ σῶμα καὶ πυκτικὸς γενόμενος, ἔπειτα τὸν πατέρα τύπτῃ καὶ τὴν μητέρα ἢ ἄλλον τινὰ τῶν οἰκείων ἢ τῶν φίλων, οὐ τούτου ἕνεκα δεῖ τοὺς παιδοτρίβας καὶ τοὺς ἐν τοῖς ὅπλοις διδάσκοντας μάχεσθαι μισεῖν τε καὶ ἐκβάλλειν ἐκ τῶν πόλεων.
Nor, by Zeus, if someone who has frequented the wrestling school, becomes physically fit and a good boxer, and then strikes his father and mother or any other of his relatives or friends, not for this reason should one hate the physical trainers and those who teach how to fight in armor, and banish them from the cities.
ἐκεῖνοι μὲν γὰρ παρέδοσαν ἐπὶ τῷ δικαίως χρῆσθαι τούτοις πρὸς τοὺς πολεμίους καὶ τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας, ἀμυνομένους, μὴ ὑπάρχοντας·
For they handed down these skills on the condition that they be used justly, against enemies and wrongdoers, in self-defense and not as the aggressor.
οἱ δὲ μεταστρέψαντες χρῶνται τῇ ἰσχύϊ καὶ τῇ τέχνῃ οὐκ ὀρθῶς.
But those others, perverting them, use their strength and art unjustly.