§354ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν φαίνεται, ὦ ἄνθρωποι, ὑμῖν, ὥς φαμεν ἐγώ τε καὶ Πρωταγόρας, διʼ οὐδὲν ἄλλο ταῦτα κακὰ ὄντα ἢ διότι εἰς ἀνίας τε ἀποτελευτᾷ καὶ ἄλλων ἡδονῶν ἀποστερεῖ;
Socrates: "Well then, men, does it appear to you, as Protagoras and I say, that these things are bad for no other reason than because they end in pains and deprive you of other pleasures?
Ὁμολογοῖεν ἄν; —συνεδόκει ἡμῖν ἀμφοῖν. —οὐκοῦν πάλιν ἂν αὐτοὺς τὸ ἐναντίον εἰ ἐροίμεθα· ὦ ἄνθρωποι οἱ λέγοντες αὖ ἀγαθὰ ἀνιαρὰ εἶναι, ἆρα οὐ τὰ τοιάδε λέγετε, οἷον τά τε γυμνάσια καὶ τὰς στρατείας καὶ τὰς ὑπὸ τῶν ἰατρῶν θεραπείας τὰς διὰ καύσεών τε καὶ τομῶν καὶ φαρμακειῶν καὶ λιμοκτονιῶν γιγνομένας, ὅτι ταῦτα ἀγαθὰ μέν ἐστιν, ἀνιαρὰ δέ; φαῖεν ἄν; —συνεδόκει. —πότερον οὖν κατὰ τόδε ἀγαθὰ αὐτὰ καλεῖτε, ὅτι ἐν τῷ παραχρῆμα ὀδύνας τὰς ἐσχάτας παρέχει καὶ ἀλγηδόνας, ἢ ὅτι εἰς τὸν ὕστερον χρόνον ὑγίειαί τε ἀπʼ αὐτῶν γίγνονται καὶ εὐεξίαι τῶν σωμάτων καὶ τῶν πόλεων σωτηρίαι καὶ ἄλλων ἀρχαὶ καὶ πλοῦτοι; φαῖεν ἄν, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι. —συνεδόκει. —ταῦτα δὲ ἀγαθά ἐστι διʼ ἄλλο τι ἢ ὅτι εἰς ἡδονὰς ἀποτελευτᾷ καὶ λυπῶν ἀπαλλαγάς τε καὶ ἀποτροπάς;
Would they agree?" —We both agreed.— "Therefore, if we should ask them again the opposite: 'Men who say on the other hand that painful things are good, do you not mean such things as physical exercises, military campaigns, and treatments by doctors through burning, cutting, drugs, and starving, that these are indeed good, but painful?' Would they say so?" —We agreed.— "'Is it then in this respect that you call them good, because at the moment they provide extreme pain and suffering, or because in the future health comes from them, and good physical condition, and the preservation of cities, and rule over others, and wealth?' They would say so, as I think." —We agreed.— "'And are these things good for any other reason than because they end in pleasures and the release from and prevention of pains?
ἢ ἔχετέ τι ἄλλο τέλος λέγειν, εἰς ὃ ἀποβλέψαντες αὐτὰ ἀγαθὰ καλεῖτε, ἀλλʼ ἢ ἡδονάς τε καὶ λύπας; οὐκ ἂν φαῖεν, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι. —
οὐδʼ ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ,
ἔφη ὁ Πρωταγόρας.
Or do you have some other end to mention, looking to which you call them good, other than pleasures and pains?' They would say no, as I think." "Nor does it seem so to me," Protagoras said.
—οὐκοῦν τὴν μὲν ἡδονὴν διώκετε ὡς ἀγαθὸν ὄν, τὴν δὲ λύπην φεύγετε ὡς κακόν; —συνεδόκει. —τοῦτʼ ἄρα ἡγεῖσθʼ εἶναι κακόν, τὴν λύπην, καὶ ἀγαθὸν τὴν ἡδονήν, ἐπεὶ καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ χαίρειν τότε λέγετε κακὸν εἶναι, ὅταν μειζόνων ἡδονῶν ἀποστερῇ ἢ ὅσας αὐτὸ ἔχει, ἢ λύπας μείζους παρασκευάζῃ τῶν ἐν αὐτῷ ἡδονῶν·
"'Therefore, do you pursue pleasure as being good, and avoid pain as being bad?' "—We agreed.— "'This, then, you think is bad, namely pain, and pleasure is good, since you call enjoying itself bad at that time when it deprives you of greater pleasures than those it has, or prepares greater pains than the pleasures in itself.
ἐπεὶ εἰ κατʼ ἄλλο τι αὐτὸ τὸ χαίρειν κακὸν καλεῖτε καὶ εἰς ἄλλο τι τέλος ἀποβλέψαντες, ἔχοιτε ἂν καὶ ἡμῖν εἰπεῖν· ἀλλʼ οὐχ ἕξετε. —
οὐδʼ ἐμοὶ δοκοῦσιν,
ἔφη ὁ Πρωταγόρας.
For if you call enjoying itself bad for some other reason and looking to some other end, you would be able to tell us; but you will not be able to.' ""Nor do I think they will," Protagoras said.
—ἄλλο τι οὖν πάλιν καὶ περὶ αὐτοῦ τοῦ λυπεῖσθαι ὁ αὐτὸς τρόπος;
"'Is it not, then, the same way again concerning pain itself?
τότε καλεῖτε αὐτὸ τὸ λυπεῖσθαι ἀγαθόν, ὅταν ἢ μείζους λύπας τῶν ἐν αὐτῷ οὐσῶν ἀπαλλάττῃ ἢ μείζους ἡδονὰς τῶν λυπῶν παρασκευάζῃ;
Do you call pain itself good at that time when it either rids you of greater pains than those present in it, or prepares greater pleasures than the pains?
ἐπεὶ εἰ πρὸς ἄλλο τι τέλος ἀποβλέπετε, ὅταν καλῆτε αὐτὸ τὸ λυπεῖσθαι ἀγαθόν, ἢ πρὸς ὃ ἐγὼ λέγω, ἔχετε ἡμῖν εἰπεῖν· ἀλλʼ οὐχ ἕξετε. —
ἀληθῆ,
ἔφη,
λέγεις,
ὁ Πρωταγόρας.
For if you look to some other end when you call pain itself good than the one I mention, you would have something to tell us; but you will not have.' ""What you say is true," Protagoras said.
πάλιν τοίνυν, ἔφην ἐγώ, εἴ με ἀνέροισθε, ὦ ἄνθρωποι,
τίνος οὖν δήποτε ἕνεκα πολλὰ περὶ τούτου λέγεις καὶ πολλαχῇ; Συγγιγνώσκετέ μοι, φαίην ἂν ἔγωγε.
"'Again then,' I said, 'if you should ask me, men: "For what on earth reason do you say so many things about this and in so many ways?" I for my part would say: "Forgive me.
πρῶτον μὲν γὰρ οὐ ῥᾴδιον ἀποδεῖξαι τί ἐστίν ποτε τοῦτο ὃ ὑμεῖς καλεῖτε τῶν ἡδονῶν ἥττω εἶναι· ἔπειτα ἐν τούτῳ εἰσὶν πᾶσαι αἱ ἀποδείξεις.
For first, it is not easy to show what on earth this is which you call being weaker than pleasures; and second, all our proofs depend on this." '"