§347ΣΩ. σὲ οὖν, καὶ εἰ μέσως ἔλεγες ἐπιεικῆ καὶ ἀληθῆ, ὦ Πιττακέ, οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἔψεγον· νῦν δὲ σφόδρα γὰρ καὶ περὶ τῶν μεγίστων ψευδόμενος δοκεῖς ἀληθῆ λέγειν, διὰ ταῦτά σε ἐγὼ ψέγω.
'Therefore, O Pittacus, if you were saying things that are even moderately fair and true, I would never have blamed you; but as it is, since you lie grievously and about the most important things, yet seem to speak the truth, for these reasons I blame you.
ταῦτά μοι δοκεῖ, ὦ Πρόδικε καὶ Πρωταγόρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, Σιμωνίδης διανοούμενος πεποιηκέναι τοῦτο τὸ ᾆσμα. καὶ ὁ Ἱππίας,
εὖ μέν μοι δοκεῖς,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, καὶ σὺ περὶ τοῦ ᾄσματος διεληλυθέναι· ἔστιν μέντοι, ἔφη, καὶ ἐμοὶ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ εὖ ἔχων, ὃν ὑμῖν ἐπιδείξω, ἂν βούλησθε. καὶ ὁ Ἀλκιβιάδης,
ναί,
ἔφη,
ὦ Ἱππία, εἰς αὖθίς γε· νῦν δὲ δίκαιόν ἐστιν ἃ ὡμολογησάτην πρὸς ἀλλήλω Πρωταγόρας καὶ Σωκράτης, Πρωταγόρας μὲν εἰ ἔτι βούλεται ἐρωτᾶν, ἀποκρίνεσθαι Σωκράτη, εἰ δὲ δὴ βούλεται Σωκράτει ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἐρωτᾶν τὸν ἕτερον. καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· Ἐπιτρέπω μὲν ἔγωγε Πρωταγόρᾳ ὁπότερον αὐτῷ ἥδιον· εἰ δὲ βούλεται, περὶ μὲν ᾀσμάτων τε καὶ ἐπῶν ἐάσωμεν, περὶ δὲ ὧν τὸ πρῶτον ἐγώ σε ἠρώτησα, ὦ Πρωταγόρα, ἡδέως ἂν ἐπὶ τέλος ἔλθοιμι μετὰ σοῦ σκοπούμενος.
These things, Prodicus and Protagoras,' I said, 'Simonides seems to me to have had in mind when he composed this song.' And Hippias said, 'You seem to me, Socrates, to have discussed the song very well indeed; however,' he said, 'I too have an excellent discourse about it, which I shall display to you, if you wish.' And Alcibiades said, 'Yes, Hippias, some other time; but now it is right to do what Protagoras and Socrates agreed with each other—on the one hand, if Protagoras still wishes to question, Socrates is to answer; on the other hand, if he wishes to answer Socrates, the other is to question.' And I said, 'For my part, I leave it to Protagoras whichever is more pleasing to him; but if he wishes, let us dismiss songs and verses, and regarding those things about which I first questioned you, Protagoras, I would gladly come to an end examining them with you.
καὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ μοι τὸ περὶ ποιήσεως διαλέγεσθαι ὁμοιότατον εἶναι τοῖς συμποσίοις τοῖς τῶν φαύλων καὶ ἀγοραίων ἀνθρώπων.
For indeed, discussing poetry seems to me most like the banquets of low and common people.
καὶ γὰρ οὗτοι, διὰ τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι ἀλλήλοις διʼ ἑαυτῶν συνεῖναι ἐν τῷ πότῳ μηδὲ διὰ τῆς ἑαυτῶν φωνῆς καὶ τῶν λόγων τῶν ἑαυτῶν ὑπὸ ἀπαιδευσίας, τιμίας ποιοῦσι τὰς αὐλητρίδας, πολλοῦ μισθούμενοι ἀλλοτρίαν φωνὴν τὴν τῶν αὐλῶν, καὶ διὰ τῆς ἐκείνων φωνῆς ἀλλήλοις σύνεισιν·
For these people, because of their inability to converse with one another by themselves during their drinking, nor through their own voice and their own words due to their lack of education, make flute-girls expensive, hiring at a high price an alien voice—that of the flutes—and they converse with one another through the voice of those girls.
ὅπου δὲ καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ συμπόται καὶ πεπαιδευμένοι εἰσίν, οὐκ ἂν ἴδοις οὔτʼ αὐλητρίδας οὔτε ὀρχηστρίδας οὔτε ψαλτρίας, ἀλλὰ αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς ἱκανοὺς ὄντας συνεῖναι ἄνευ τῶν λήρων τε καὶ παιδιῶν τούτων διὰ τῆς αὑτῶν φωνῆς, λέγοντάς τε καὶ ἀκούοντας ἐν μέρει ἑαυτῶν κοσμίως, κἂν πάνυ πολὺν οἶνον πίωσιν.
But where the banqueters are gentlemen and educated, you would see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls, but they themselves are sufficient to converse with one another without these trifles and child's play through their own voice, speaking and listening in turn in an orderly manner, even if they drink very much wine.
οὕτω δὲ καὶ αἱ τοιαίδε συνουσίαι, ἐὰν μὲν λάβωνται ἀνδρῶν οἷοίπερ ἡμῶν οἱ πολλοί φασιν εἶναι, οὐδὲν δέονται ἀλλοτρίας φωνῆς οὐδὲ ποιητῶν, οὓς οὔτε ἀνερέσθαι οἷόν τʼ ἐστὶν περὶ ὧν λέγουσιν, ἐπαγόμενοί τε αὐτοὺς οἱ πολλοὶ ἐν τοῖς λόγοις οἱ μὲν ταῦτά φασιν τὸν ποιητὴν νοεῖν, οἱ δʼ ἕτερα, περὶ πράγματος διαλεγόμενοι ὃ ἀδυνατοῦσι ἐξελέγξαι·
And in the same way, gatherings of this kind, if they lay hold of men such as most of us claim to be, have no need of an alien voice, nor of poets, whom it is not possible to question about what they say, and when the majority introduce them into their discussions, some say the poet intends this, and others say something else, conversing about a matter which they are unable to verify.
§348ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τὰς μὲν τοιαύτας συνουσίας ἐῶσιν χαίρειν, αὐτοὶ δʼ ἑαυτοῖς σύνεισιν διʼ ἑαυτῶν, ἐν τοῖς ἑαυτῶν λόγοις πεῖραν ἀλλήλων λαμβάνοντες καὶ διδόντες.
Socrates: Rather, they dismiss such gatherings, and converse with one another by themselves, taking and giving trial of one another in their own words.
τοὺς τοιούτους μοι δοκεῖ χρῆναι μᾶλλον μιμεῖσθαι ἐμέ τε καὶ σέ, καταθεμένους τοὺς ποιητὰς αὐτοὺς διʼ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν πρὸς ἀλλήλους τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι, τῆς ἀληθείας καὶ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν πεῖραν λαμβάνοντας·
It seems to me that you and I ought rather to imitate such men, and setting the poets aside, conduct our discussions with each other by ourselves, taking trial of the truth and of ourselves.
κἂν μὲν βούλῃ ἔτι ἐρωτᾶν, ἕτοιμός εἰμί σοι παρέχειν ἀποκρινόμενος· ἐὰν δὲ βούλῃ, σὺ ἐμοὶ παράσχες, περὶ ὧν μεταξὺ ἐπαυσάμεθα διεξιόντες, τούτοις τέλος ἐπιθεῖναι. λέγοντος οὖν ἐμοῦ ταῦτα καὶ τοιαῦτα ἄλλα οὐδὲν ἀπεσάφει ὁ Πρωταγόρας ὁπότερα ποιήσοι.
And if you still wish to question, I am ready to offer myself in answering; but if you wish, offer yourself to me, to put an end to those things which we stopped discussing in the middle.' When I said these and other such things, Protagoras made it in no way clear which of the two he would do.
εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἀλκιβιάδης πρὸς τὸν Καλλίαν βλέψας,
ὦ Καλλία, δοκεῖ σοι,
ἔφη,
καὶ νῦν καλῶς Πρωταγόρας ποιεῖν, οὐκ ἐθέλων εἴτε δώσει λόγον εἴτε μὴ διασαφεῖν;
Alcibiades then said, looking toward Callias, 'O Callias, does Protagoras seem to you to be doing well even now, in not being willing to clarify whether he will give discussion or not?
ἐμοὶ γὰρ οὐ δοκεῖ· ἀλλʼ ἤτοι διαλεγέσθω ἢ εἰπέτω ὅτι οὐκ ἐθέλει διαλέγεσθαι, ἵνα τούτῳ μὲν ταῦτα συνειδῶμεν, Σωκράτης δὲ ἄλλῳ τῳ διαλέγηται ἢ ἄλλος ὅστις ἂν βούληται ἄλλῳ. καὶ ὁ Πρωταγόρας αἰσχυνθείς, ὥς γέ μοι ἔδοξεν, τοῦ τε Ἀλκιβιάδου ταῦτα λέγοντος καὶ τοῦ Καλλίου δεομένου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων σχεδόν τι τῶν παρόντων, μόγις προυτράπετο εἰς τὸ διαλέγεσθαι καὶ ἐκέλευεν ἐρωτᾶν αὑτὸν ὡς ἀποκρινούμενος.
For to me he does not seem so; but let him either converse or say that he does not wish to converse, so that we may be aware of this, and Socrates may converse with someone else, or whoever else wishes with someone else.' And Protagoras, feeling ashamed, as it seemed to me, when Alcibiades said these things and Callias entreated him, as did almost everyone else present, with difficulty turned himself to discuss and bid me question him as one who would answer.
εἶπον δὴ ἐγώ· ὦ Πρωταγόρα, μὴ οἴου διαλέγεσθαί μέ σοι ἄλλο τι βουλόμενον ἢ ἃ αὐτὸς ἀπορῶ ἑκάστοτε, ταῦτα διασκέψασθαι.
Then I said, 'O Protagoras, do not think that I am discussing with you with any other wish than to examine those things about which I myself am perplexed on each occasion.
ἡγοῦμαι γὰρ πάνυ λέγειν τι τὸν Ὅμηρον τὸ—
"
σύν τε δύʼ ἐρχομένω, καί τε πρὸ ὃ τοῦ ἐνόησεν. "
εὐπορώτεροι γάρ πως ἅπαντές ἐσμεν οἱ ἄνθρωποι πρὸς ἅπαν ἔργον καὶ λόγον καὶ διανόημα· "μοῦνος δʼ εἴπερ τε νοήσῃ"
, αὐτίκα περιιὼν ζητεῖ ὅτῳ ἐπιδείξηται καὶ μεθʼ ὅτου βεβαιώσηται, ἕως ἂν ἐντύχῃ.
For I think Homer speaks very much to the point in saying, "When two go together, one perceives before the other." For we humans are all somehow more resourceful for every deed, word, and thought; but "if one perceives alone," he immediately goes about seeking whom he may show it to and with whom he may confirm it, until he meets someone.
ὥσπερ καὶ ἐγὼ ἕνεκα τούτου σοὶ ἡδέως διαλέγομαι μᾶλλον ἢ ἄλλῳ τινί, ἡγούμενός σε βέλτιστʼ ἂν ἐπισκέψασθαι καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων περὶ ὧν εἰκὸς σκοπεῖσθαι τὸν ἐπιεικῆ, καὶ δὴ καὶ περὶ ἀρετῆς.
Just as I, for this reason, gladly discuss with you rather than with anyone else, believing that you would best examine both other things which it is fitting for a gentleman to examine, and especially virtue.
τίνα γὰρ ἄλλον ἢ σέ;
For whom else than you?
ὅς γε οὐ μόνον αὐτὸς οἴει καλὸς κἀγαθὸς εἶναι, ὥσπερ τινὲς ἄλλοι αὐτοὶ μὲν ἐπιεικεῖς εἰσιν, ἄλλους δὲ οὐ δύνανται ποιεῖν·
Since you not only believe yourself to be a gentleman, as some others are indeed fair themselves, but are unable to make others so;'