§289ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τὸ πρότερον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, τοῦτό γε ἐξηλέγξαμεν, ὅτι οὐδὲν πλέον, οὐδʼ εἰ ἄνευ πραγμάτων καὶ τοῦ ὀρύττειν τὴν γῆν τὸ πᾶν ἡμῖν χρυσίον γένοιτο· ὥστε οὐδʼ εἰ τὰς πέτρας χρυσᾶς ἐπισταίμεθα ποιεῖν, οὐδενὸς ἂν ἀξία ἡ ἐπιστήμη εἴη.
SOCRATES: "But," I said, "we already refuted this earlier, namely, that there would be no advantage, not even if all the gold should become ours without any trouble and without digging the earth; so that not even if we knew how to make stones into gold, would that knowledge be of any value.
εἰ γὰρ μὴ καὶ χρῆσθαι ἐπιστησόμεθα τῷ χρυσίῳ, οὐδὲν ὄφελος αὐτοῦ ἐφάνη ὄν· ἢ οὐ μέμνησαι; ἔφην ἐγώ.
For if we do not also know how to use the gold, it appeared to be of no benefit; or do you not remember?" I said.
—
πάνυ γʼ,
ἔφη, μέμνημαι. —οὐδέ γε, ὡς ἔοικε, τῆς ἄλλης ἐπιστήμης ὄφελος γίγνεται οὐδέν, οὔτε χρηματιστικῆς οὔτε ἰατρικῆς οὔτε ἄλλης οὐδεμιᾶς, ἥτις ποιεῖν τι ἐπίσταται, χρῆσθαι δὲ μὴ ᾧ ἂν ποιήσῃ· οὐχ οὕτως; —συνέφη.
"Quite so," he said, "I remember." "And indeed, as it seems, no benefit comes from any other knowledge, whether of money-making or medicine or any other that knows how to make something, but not how to use what it has made; is it not so?" He agreed.
—οὐδέ γε εἴ τις ἔστιν ἐπιστήμη ὥστε ἀθανάτους ποιεῖν, ἄνευ τοῦ ἐπίστασθαι τῇ ἀθανασίᾳ χρῆσθαι οὐδὲ ταύτης ἔοικεν ὄφελος οὐδέν, εἴ τι δεῖ τοῖς πρόσθεν ὡμολογημένοις τεκμαίρεσθαι. —συνεδόκει ἡμῖν πάντα ταῦτα.
"And indeed, even if there is some knowledge so as to make people immortal, without knowing how to use immortality, it seems there is no benefit from this either, if we are to judge by our previous agreements." All these things were agreed upon by us.
—τοιαύτης τινὸς ἄρα ἡμῖν ἐπιστήμης δεῖ, ὦ καλὲ παῖ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἐν ᾗ συμπέπτωκεν ἅμα τό τε ποιεῖν καὶ τὸ ἐπίστασθαι χρῆσθαι τούτῳ ὃ ἂν ποιῇ. —
φαίνεται,
ἔφη.
"Then, my beautiful boy," I said, "we need some such knowledge in which there coincides both the making and the knowing how to use that which one makes." "It seems so," he said.
—πολλοῦ ἄρα δεῖ, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἡμᾶς λυροποιοὺς δεῖν εἶναι καὶ τοιαύτης τινὸς ἐπιστήμης ἐπηβόλους.
"We are far indeed then, as it seems, from needing to be lyre-makers and from needing to possess some such knowledge.
ἐνταῦθα γὰρ δὴ χωρὶς μὲν ἡ ποιοῦσα τέχνη, χωρὶς δὲ ἡ χρωμένη διῄρηται τοῦ αὐτοῦ πέρι· ἡ γὰρ λυροποιικὴ καὶ ἡ κιθαριστικὴ πολὺ διαφέρετον ἀλλήλοιν.
For there, the art that makes and the art that uses are divided separately concerning the same thing; for lyre-making and cithara-playing differ greatly from each other.
οὐχ οὕτως; —συνέφη.
Is it not so?" He agreed.
—οὐδὲ μὴν αὐλοποιικῆς γε δῆλον ὅτι δεόμεθα· καὶ γὰρ αὕτη ἑτέρα τοιαύτη. —συνεδόκει.
"Nor indeed, clearly, do we need flute-making; for this too is another of the same kind." It was agreed.
—ἀλλὰ πρὸς θεῶν, ἔφην ἐγώ, εἰ τὴν λογοποιικὴν τέχνην μάθοιμεν, ἆρά ἐστιν αὕτη ἣν ἔδει κεκτημένους ἡμᾶς εὐδαίμονας εἶναι; —
οὐκ οἶμαι,
ἔφη,
ἐγώ,
ὁ Κλεινίας ὑπολαβών.
"But by the gods," I said, "if we should learn the art of speech-making, is this the one we ought to possess to be happy?" "I do not think so," said Cleinias, breaking in.
τίνι τεκμηρίῳ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, χρῇ; ὁρῶ,
ἔφη,
τινὰς λογοποιούς, οἳ τοῖς ἰδίοις λόγοις, οἷς αὐτοὶ ποιοῦσιν, οὐκ ἐπίστανται χρῆσθαι, ὥσπερ οἱ λυροποιοὶ ταῖς λύραις, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐνταῦθα ἄλλοι δυνατοὶ χρῆσθαι οἷς ἐκεῖνοι ἠργάσαντο, οἱ λογοποιεῖν αὐτοὶ ἀδύνατοι·
"What evidence," I said, "do you use?" "I see," he said, "some speech-makers who do not know how to use their own speeches, which they themselves make, just as lyre-makers do not know how to use lyres; but there too, others are able to use what those men have produced, though they themselves are unable to make speeches.
δῆλον οὖν ὅτι καὶ περὶ λόγους χωρὶς ἡ τοῦ ποιεῖν τέχνη καὶ ἡ τοῦ χρῆσθαι. ἱκανόν μοι δοκεῖς, ἔφην ἐγώ, τεκμήριον λέγειν, ὅτι οὐχ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ τῶν λογοποιῶν τέχνη, ἣν ἂν κτησάμενός τις εὐδαίμων εἴη.
It is clear then that also concerning speeches, the art of making is separate from that of using." "You seem to me," I said, "to state sufficient evidence that this art of speech-makers is not the one which someone, by acquiring it, would be happy.
καίτοι ἐγὼ ᾤμην ἐνταῦθά που φανήσεσθαι τὴν ἐπιστήμην ἣν δὴ πάλαι ζητοῦμεν.
And yet I thought that somewhere here would appear the knowledge which we have indeed been seeking for a long time.
καὶ γάρ μοι οἵ τε ἄνδρες αὐτοὶ οἱ λογοποιοί, ὅταν συγγένωμαι αὐτοῖς, ὑπέρσοφοι, ὦ Κλεινία, δοκοῦσιν εἶναι, καὶ αὐτὴ ἡ τέχνη αὐτῶν θεσπεσία τις καὶ ὑψηλή.
For to me, the speech-makers themselves, when I associate with them, seem to be super-wise, Cleinias, and their art itself seems to be something divine and sublime.
καὶ μέντοι οὐδὲν θαυμαστόν· ἔστι γὰρ τῆς τῶν ἐπῳδῶν τέχνης μόριον μικρῷ τε ἐκείνης ὑποδεεστέρα.
And indeed, it is no wonder; for it is a part of the art of sorcerers and is only slightly inferior to that one."