§277ΣΩ. ἐν δὲ τούτῳ ὁ μὲν Κλεινίας τῷ Εὐθυδήμῳ ἀπεκρίνατο ὅτι μανθάνοιεν οἱ μανθάνοντες ἃ οὐκ ἐπίσταιντο· ὁ δὲ ἤρετο αὐτὸν διὰ τῶν αὐτῶν ὧνπερ τὸ πρότερον· τί δέ; ἦ δʼ ὅς,
οὐκ ἐπίστασαι σὺ γράμματα; —
ναί,
ἔφη. —
οὐκοῦν ἅπαντα; —ὡμολόγει. —
ὅταν οὖν τις ἀποστοματίζῃ ὁτιοῦν, οὐ γράμματα ἀποστοματίζει; —ὡμολόγει. —
οὐκοῦν ὧν τι σὺ ἐπίστασαι,
ἔφη,
ἀποστοματίζει, εἴπερ πάντα ἐπίστασαι; —καὶ τοῦτο ὡμολόγει. —
τί οὖν; ἦ δʼ ὅς,
ἆρα σὺ οὐ μανθάνεις ἅττʼ ἂν ἀποστοματίζῃ τις, ὁ δὲ μὴ ἐπιστάμενος γράμματα μανθάνει; —
οὔκ, ἀλλʼ,
ἦ δʼ ὅς,
μανθάνω. —
οὐκοῦν ἃ ἐπίστασαι, ἦ δʼ ὅς, μανθάνεις, εἴπερ γε ἅπαντα τὰ γράμματα ἐπίστασαι. —ὡμολόγησεν. —
οὐκ ἄρα ὀρθῶς ἀπεκρίνω,
ἔφη.
SOCRATES: In the meantime, Clinias answered Euthydemus that those who learn learn what they do not know; and Euthydemus questioned him through the same means as before: "How is that?" he said, "do you not know letters?" — "Yes," Clinias said. — "All of them?" — He agreed. — "Then when someone dictates anything, is it not letters that he dictates?" — He agreed. — "Then is it not something of what you know," he said, "that he dictates, if indeed you know all letters?" — He agreed to this too. — "How then?" he said, "do you not learn whatever someone dictates, while the one who does not know letters learns?" — "No," he said, "on the contrary, I learn." — "Then you learn," he said, "what you know, if indeed you know all letters." — He agreed. — "Then you did not answer correctly," he said.
καὶ οὔπω σφόδρα τι ταῦτα εἴρητο τῷ Εὐθυδήμῳ, καὶ ὁ Διονυσόδωρος ὥσπερ σφαῖραν ἐκδεξάμενος τὸν λόγον πάλιν ἐστοχάζετο τοῦ μειρακίου, καὶ εἶπεν· Ἐξαπατᾷ σε Εὐθύδημος, ὦ Κλεινία.
And Euthydemus had not yet quite finished saying these things, when Dionysodorus, catching the argument like a ball, aimed again at the youth and said: "Euthydemus is deceiving you, Clinias.
εἰπὲ γάρ μοι, τὸ μανθάνειν οὐκ ἐπιστήμην ἐστὶ λαμβάνειν τούτου οὗ ἄν τις μανθάνῃ; —ὡμολόγει ὁ Κλεινίας. —
τὸ δʼ ἐπίστασθαι,
ἦ δʼ ὅς,
ἄλλο τι ἢ ἔχειν ἐπιστήμην ἤδη ἐστίν; —συνέφη. —
τὸ ἄρα μὴ ἐπίστασθαι μήπω ἔχειν ἐπιστήμην ἐστίν; —ὡμολόγει αὐτῷ. —
πότερον οὖν εἰσιν οἱ λαμβάνοντες ὁτιοῦν οἱ ἔχοντες ἤδη ἢ οἳ ἂν μὴ ἔχωσιν; —
οἳ ἂν μή. —
οὐκοῦν ὡμολόγηκας εἶναι τούτων καὶ τοὺς μὴ ἐπισταμένους, τῶν μὴ ἐχόντων; —κατένευσε. —
τῶν λαμβανόντων ἄρʼ εἰσὶν οἱ μανθάνοντες, ἀλλʼ οὐ τῶν ἐχόντων; —συνέφη. —
οἱ μὴ ἐπιστάμενοι ἄρα, ἔφη, μανθάνουσιν, ὦ Κλεινία, ἀλλʼ οὐχ οἱ ἐπιστάμενοι. ἔτι δὴ ἐπὶ τὸ τρίτον καταβαλῶν ὥσπερ πάλαισμα ὥρμα ὁ Εὐθύδημος τὸν νεανίσκον· καὶ ἐγὼ γνοὺς βαπτιζόμενον τὸ μειράκιον, βουλόμενος ἀναπαῦσαι αὐτό, μὴ ἡμῖν ἀποδειλιάσειε, παραμυθούμενος εἶπον· ὦ Κλεινία, μὴ θαύμαζε εἴ σοι φαίνονται ἀήθεις οἱ λόγοι.
For tell me, is not learning to receive knowledge of that which one learns?" — Clinias agreed. — "And to know," he said, "is it anything other than already having knowledge?" — He agreed. — "To not know, then, is to not yet have knowledge?" — He agreed with him. — "Then are those who receive anything those who already have it, or those who do not have it?" — "Those who do not have it." — "Then you have agreed that those who do not know are among those who do not have?" — He nodded. — "Then are those who learn among those who receive, and not among those who have?" — He agreed. — "Then the ignorant learn, Clinias," he said, "and not those who know." Euthydemus was already rushing upon the young man to throw him for a third fall, as it were in wrestling; and I, perceiving that the youth was going under, and wishing to give him a rest lest he should lose courage before us, said by way of comfort: "Clinias, do not marvel if the arguments appear strange to you.
ἴσως γὰρ οὐκ αἰσθάνῃ οἷον ποιεῖτον τὼ ξένω περὶ σέ· ποιεῖτον δὲ ταὐτὸν ὅπερ οἱ ἐν τῇ τελετῇ τῶν Κορυβάντων, ὅταν τὴν θρόνωσιν ποιῶσιν περὶ τοῦτον ὃν ἂν μέλλωσι τελεῖν.
For perhaps you do not perceive what the two strangers are doing to you; they are doing the same thing as those in the ritual of the Corybantes, when they perform the enthronement ceremony for the one they are about to initiate.
καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖ χορεία τίς ἐστι καὶ παιδιά, εἰ ἄρα καὶ τετέλεσαι· καὶ νῦν τούτω οὐδὲν ἄλλο ἢ χορεύετον περὶ σὲ καὶ οἷον ὀρχεῖσθον παίζοντε, ὡς μετὰ τοῦτο τελοῦντε.
For indeed there is a kind of choral dance and play there, if indeed you have been initiated; and now these two are doing nothing other than dancing around you and, as it were, sporting in a dance, so as to initiate you after this.
νῦν οὖν νόμισον τὰ πρῶτα τῶν ἱερῶν ἀκούειν τῶν σοφιστικῶν. §278ΣΩ. πρῶτον γάρ, ὥς φησι Πρόδικος, περὶ ὀνομάτων ὀρθότητος μαθεῖν δεῖ· ὃ δὴ καὶ ἐνδείκνυσθόν σοι τὼ ξένω, ὅτι οὐκ ᾔδησθα τὸ μανθάνειν ὅτι οἱ ἄνθρωποι καλοῦσι μὲν ἐπὶ τῷ τοιῷδε, ὅταν τις ἐξ ἀρχῆς μηδεμίαν ἔχων ἐπιστήμην περὶ πράγματός τινος ἔπειτα ὕστερον αὐτοῦ λαμβάνῃ τὴν ἐπιστήμην, καλοῦσι δὲ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο καὶ ἐπειδὰν ἔχων ἤδη τὴν ἐπιστήμην ταύτῃ τῇ ἐπιστήμῃ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο πρᾶγμα ἐπισκοπῇ ἢ πραττόμενον ἢ λεγόμενον—μᾶλλον μὲν αὐτὸ συνιέναι καλοῦσιν ἢ μανθάνειν, ἔστι δʼ ὅτε καὶ μανθάνειν—σὲ δὲ τοῦτο, ὡς οὗτοι ἐνδείκνυνται, διαλέληθεν, ταὐτὸν ὄνομα ἐπʼ ἀνθρώποις ἐναντίως ἔχουσιν κείμενον, τῷ τε εἰδότι καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ μή·
Now therefore believe that you are hearing the first of the sophistical rites." SOCRATES: "For first, as Prodicus says, one must learn about the correctness of names; which indeed is what the two strangers are showing you, that you did not know that people call 'learning' on the one hand when someone, having no knowledge of a thing at the beginning, then later receives knowledge of it, and on the other hand they call it the same when, already having the knowledge, he uses this same knowledge to examine this same thing either being done or being spoken—they call it understanding rather than learning, but sometimes they also call it learning—and this, as these men show, has escaped your notice, that the same name is applied to people in opposite states, both to the one who knows and to the one who does not.
παραπλήσιον δὲ τούτῳ καὶ τὸ ἐν τῷ δευτέρῳ ἐρωτήματι, ἐν ᾧ ἠρώτων σε πότερα μανθάνουσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι ἃ ἐπίστανται ἢ ἃ μή.
Similar to this was also the second question, in which they asked you whether men learn what they know or what they do not.
ταῦτα δὴ τῶν μαθημάτων παιδιά ἐστιν—διὸ καί φημι ἐγώ σοι τούτους προσπαίζειν—παιδιὰν δὲ λέγω διὰ ταῦτα, ὅτι, εἰ καὶ πολλά τις ἢ καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα μάθοι, τὰ μὲν πράγματα οὐδὲν ἂν μᾶλλον εἰδείη πῇ ἔχει, προσπαίζειν δὲ οἷός τʼ ἂν εἴη τοῖς ἀνθρώποις διὰ τὴν τῶν ὀνομάτων διαφορὰν ὑποσκελίζων καὶ ἀνατρέπων, ὥσπερ οἱ τὰ σκολύθρια τῶν μελλόντων καθιζήσεσθαι ὑποσπῶντες χαίρουσι καὶ γελῶσιν, ἐπειδὰν ἴδωσιν ὕπτιον ἀνατετραμμένον.
These things indeed are the play of studies—which is why I say that these men are playing with you—and I call it play for this reason: that even if one should learn many or even all such things, he would know none the more how matters stand, but he would be able to play with men, tripping them up and turning them upside down through the difference of names, just as those who pull away the stools of people who are about to sit down rejoice and laugh when they see them overturned on their backs.
ταῦτα μὲν οὖν σοι παρὰ τούτων νόμιζε παιδιὰν γεγονέναι· τὸ δὲ μετὰ ταῦτα δῆλον ὅτι τούτω γέ σοι αὐτὼ τὰ σπουδαῖα ἐνδείξεσθον, καὶ ἐγὼ ὑφηγήσομαι αὐτοῖν ἵνα μοι ὃ ὑπέσχοντο ἀποδῶσιν.
Believe then that these things have been play for you from these men; but after this, it is clear that these two themselves will show you the serious things, and I will lead the way for them so that they may pay me back what they promised.
ἐφάτην γὰρ ἐπιδείξασθαι τὴν προτρεπτικὴν σοφίαν· νῦν δέ, μοι δοκεῖ, δεῖν ᾠηθήτην πρότερον παῖσαι πρὸς σέ.
For they said they would exhibit the protreptic wisdom; but now, it seems to me, they thought they must first play with you.
ταῦτα μὲν οὖν, ὦ Εὐθύδημέ τε καὶ Διονυσόδωρε, πεπαίσθω τε ὑμῖν, καὶ ἴσως ἱκανῶς ἔχει· τὸ δὲ δὴ μετὰ ταῦτα ἐπιδείξατον προτρέποντε τὸ μειράκιον ὅπως χρὴ σοφίας τε καὶ ἀρετῆς ἐπιμεληθῆναι.
Therefore, Euthydemus and Dionysodorus, let this play be finished for you, and perhaps it is sufficient; but after this, show us by exhorting the youth how he must care for wisdom and virtue.
πρότερον δʼ ἐγὼ σφῷν ἐνδείξομαι οἷον αὐτὸ ὑπολαμβάνω καὶ οἵου αὐτοῦ ἐπιθυμῶ ἀκοῦσαι.
But first I will show you how I conceive of it and what sort of thing I desire to hear.
ἐὰν οὖν δόξω ὑμῖν ἰδιωτικῶς τε καὶ γελοίως αὐτὸ ποιεῖν, μή μου καταγελᾶτε· ὑπὸ προθυμίας γὰρ τοῦ ἀκοῦσαι τῆς ὑμετέρας σοφίας τολμήσω ἀπαυτοσχεδιάσαι ἐναντίον ὑμῶν.
If therefore I seem to you to do it in an amateurish and ridiculous way, do not laugh at me; for out of eagerness to hear your wisdom, I will dare to improvise before you.
ἀνάσχεσθον οὖν ἀγελαστὶ ἀκούοντες αὐτοί τε καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ ὑμῶν·
Bear with me then and listen without laughing, both you and your disciples.
σὺ δέ μοι, ὦ παῖ Ἀξιόχου, ἀπόκριναι.
And you, son of Axiochus, answer me.
ἆρά γε πάντες ἄνθρωποι βουλόμεθα εὖ πράττειν;
Do all of us men wish to do well?
ἢ τοῦτο μὲν ἐρώτημα ὧν νυνδὴ ἐφοβούμην ἓν τῶν καταγελάστων;
Or is this question one of the ridiculous things I was just now afraid of?
ἀνόητον γὰρ δήπου καὶ τὸ ἐρωτᾶν τὰ τοιαῦτα· τίς γὰρ οὐ βούλεται ἀνθρώπων εὖ πράττειν; —
For it is surely foolish even to ask such things; for who among men does not wish to do well?"