§275ΣΩ. ὑμεῖς ἄρα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε, τῶν νῦν ἀνθρώπων κάλλιστʼ ἂν προτρέψαιτε εἰς φιλοσοφίαν καὶ ἀρετῆς ἐπιμέλειαν; οἰόμεθά γε δή, ὦ Σώκρατες. τῶν μὲν τοίνυν ἄλλων τὴν ἐπίδειξιν ἡμῖν, ἔφην, εἰς αὖθις ἀπόθεσθον, τοῦτο δʼ αὐτὸ ἐπιδείξασθον· τουτονὶ τὸν νεανίσκον πείσατον ὡς χρὴ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ ἀρετῆς ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, καὶ χαριεῖσθον ἐμοί τε καὶ τουτοισὶ πᾶσιν.
SOCRATES: "So then," I said, "Dionysodorus, would you two of all men today best exhort a person to philosophy and the care of virtue?" "We certainly think so, Socrates." "Then put off the exhibition of the other things for another time for us," I said, "and exhibit this very thing: persuade this young man here that he must philosophize and care for virtue, and you will do a favor both to me and to all these people.
συμβέβηκεν γάρ τι τοιοῦτον τῷ μειρακίῳ τούτῳ· ἐγώ τε καὶ οἵδε πάντες τυγχάνομεν ἐπιθυμοῦντες ὡς βέλτιστον αὐτὸν γενέσθαι.
For something of this sort has happened to this youth: both I and all these people happen to desire that he become as good as possible.
ἔστι δὲ οὗτος Ἀξιόχου μὲν ὑὸς τοῦ Ἀλκιβιάδου τοῦ παλαιοῦ, αὐτανεψιὸς δὲ τοῦ νῦν ὄντος Ἀλκιβιάδου· ὄνομα δʼ αὐτῷ Κλεινίας.
He is the son of Axiochus, who was the brother of Alcibiades the elder, and he is a cousin of the Alcibiades now living; his name is Clinias.
ἔστι δὲ νέος· φοβούμεθα δὴ περὶ αὐτῷ, οἷον εἰκὸς περὶ νέῳ, μή τις φθῇ ἡμᾶς ἐπʼ ἄλλο τι ἐπιτήδευμα τρέψας αὐτοῦ τὴν διάνοιαν καὶ διαφθείρῃ.
He is young; and we are indeed afraid for him, as is natural for a young person, lest someone should forestall us by turning his mind to some other pursuit and ruin him.
σφὼ οὖν ἥκετον εἰς κάλλιστον· ἀλλʼ εἰ μή τι διαφέρει ὑμῖν, λάβετον πεῖραν τοῦ μειρακίου καὶ διαλέχθητον ἐναντίον ἡμῶν. εἰπόντος οὖν ἐμοῦ σχεδόν τι αὐτὰ ταῦτα ὁ Εὐθύδημος ἅμα ἀνδρείως τε καὶ θαρραλέως,
ἀλλʼ οὐδὲν διαφέρει, ὦ Σώκρατες,
ἔφη,
ἐὰν μόνον ἐθέλῃ ἀποκρίνεσθαι ὁ νεανίσκος. ἀλλὰ μὲν δή, ἔφην ἐγώ, τοῦτό γε καὶ εἴθισται· θαμὰ γὰρ αὐτῷ οἵδε προσιόντες πολλὰ ἐρωτῶσίν τε καὶ διαλέγονται, ὥστε ἐπιεικῶς θαρρεῖ τὸ ἀποκρίνασθαι.
So you two have arrived at the finest moment; now, if it makes no difference to you, take trial of the youth and converse before us." When I had said just about these very things, Euthydemus, at once courageously and confidently, said: "Indeed it makes no difference, Socrates, if only the young man is willing to answer." "But indeed," I said, "as for that, he is quite accustomed to it; for these people frequently approach him, asking many questions and conversing, so that he is reasonably confident about answering." How then, Crito, could I relate what followed after this in a fine way to you?
τὰ δὴ μετὰ ταῦτα, ὦ Κρίτων, πῶς ἂν καλῶς σοι διηγησαίμην; οὐ γὰρ σμικρὸν τὸ ἔργον δύνασθαι ἀναλαβεῖν διεξιόντα σοφίαν ἀμήχανον ὅσην· ὥστʼ ἔγωγε, καθάπερ οἱ ποιηταί, δέομαι ἀρχόμενος τῆς διηγήσεως μούσας τε καὶ Μνημοσύνην ἐπικαλεῖσθαι.
For it is no small task to be able to recall and go through wisdom so immense; so that I, just like the poets, need to invoke the Muses and Mnemosyne at the beginning of my narration.
ἤρξατο δʼ οὖν ἐνθένδε ποθὲν ὁ Εὐθύδημος, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι· ὦ Κλεινία, πότεροί εἰσι τῶν ἀνθρώπων οἱ μανθάνοντες, οἱ σοφοὶ ἢ οἱ ἀμαθεῖς; καὶ τὸ μειράκιον, ἅτε μεγάλου ὄντος τοῦ ἐρωτήματος, ἠρυθρίασέν τε καὶ ἀπορήσας ἐνέβλεψεν εἰς ἐμέ·
At any rate, Euthydemus began from somewhere about here, as I think: "Clinias, which of men are those who learn, the wise or the ignorant?" And the youth, as the question was a great one, blushed and in perplexity looked at me.
καὶ ἐγὼ γνοὺς αὐτὸν τεθορυβημένον, θάρρει, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Κλεινία, καὶ ἀπόκριναι ἀνδρείως, ὁπότερά σοι φαίνεται· ἴσως γάρ τοι ὠφελεῖ τὴν μεγίστην ὠφελίαν. καὶ ἐν τούτῳ ὁ Διονυσόδωρος προσκύψας μοι μικρὸν πρὸς τὸ οὖς, πάνυ μειδιάσας τῷ προσώπῳ,
καὶ μήν,
ἔφη,
σοί, ὦ Σώκρατες, προλέγω ὅτι ὁπότερʼ ἂν ἀποκρίνηται τὸ μειράκιον, ἐξελεγχθήσεται. §276ΣΩ. καὶ αὐτοῦ μεταξὺ ταῦτα λέγοντος ὁ Κλεινίας ἔτυχεν ἀποκρινάμενος, ὥστε οὐδὲ παρακελεύσασθαί μοι ἐξεγένετο εὐλαβηθῆναι τῷ μειρακίῳ, ἀλλʼ ἀπεκρίνατο ὅτι οἱ σοφοὶ εἶεν οἱ μανθάνοντες.
And I, perceiving that he was troubled, said, "Have courage, Clinias, and answer bravely, whichever of the two options seems right to you; for perhaps indeed it will benefit you in the greatest way." And at this moment Dionysodorus, leaning a little to my ear, with a broad smile on his face, said, "And indeed, Socrates, I forewarn you that whichever way the youth answers, he will be refuted." And while he was saying this, Clinias happened to answer, so that it was not even possible for me to advise the youth to be cautious, but he answered that those who learn are the wise.
καὶ ὁ Εὐθύδημος,
καλεῖς δέ τινας,
ἔφη,
διδασκάλους, ἢ οὔ; —ὡμολόγει. —
οὐκοῦν τῶν μανθανόντων οἱ διδάσκαλοι διδάσκαλοί εἰσιν, ὥσπερ ὁ κιθαριστὴς καὶ ὁ γραμματιστὴς διδάσκαλοι δήπου ἦσαν σοῦ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων παίδων, ὑμεῖς δὲ μαθηταί; —συνέφη. —
ἄλλο τι οὖν, ἡνίκα ἐμανθάνετε, οὔπω ἠπίστασθε ταῦτα ἃ ἐμανθάνετε; —
οὐκ
ἔφη. —
ἆρʼ οὖν σοφοὶ ἦτε, ὅτε ταῦτα οὐκ ἠπίστασθε; —
οὐ δῆτα,
ἦ δʼ ὅς. —
οὐκοῦν εἰ μὴ σοφοί, ἀμαθεῖς; —
πάνυ γε. —
ὑμεῖς ἄρα μανθάνοντες ἃ οὐκ ἠπίστασθε, ἀμαθεῖς ὄντες ἐμανθάνετε. —ἐπένευσε τὸ μειράκιον. —
οἱ ἀμαθεῖς ἄρα μανθάνουσιν, ὦ Κλεινία, ἀλλʼ οὐχ οἱ σοφοί, ὡς σὺ οἴει. ταῦτʼ οὖν εἰπόντος αὐτοῦ, ὥσπερ ὑπὸ διδασκάλου χορὸς ἀποσημήναντος, ἅμα ἀνεθορύβησάν τε καὶ ἐγέλασαν οἱ ἑπόμενοι ἐκεῖνοι μετὰ τοῦ Διονυσοδώρου τε καὶ Εὐθυδήμου·
And Euthydemus said, "Do you call certain people teachers, or not?" — He agreed. — "Then are teachers the teachers of those who learn, just as the cithara-player and the writing-master were surely teachers of you and the other children, while you were pupils?" — He agreed. — "Then is it anything other than that, when you were learning, you did not yet know these things which you were learning?" — He said no. — "Were you then wise, when you did not know these things?" — "Certainly not," he said. — "Then if not wise, ignorant?" — "Very much so." — "You then, learning what you did not know, were learning while being ignorant." — The youth nodded. — "The ignorant then learn, Clinias, and not the wise, as you think." When he said this, just as if a chorus had received a cue from their teacher, those followers along with Dionysodorus and Euthydemus applauded and laughed at the same time.
καὶ πρὶν ἀναπνεῦσαι καλῶς τε καὶ εὖ τὸ μειράκιον, ἐκδεξάμενος ὁ Διονυσόδωρος,
τί δέ, ὦ Κλεινία,
ἔφη,
ὁπότε ἀποστοματίζοι ὑμῖν ὁ γραμματιστής, πότεροι ἐμάνθανον τῶν παίδων τὰ ἀποστοματιζόμενα, οἱ σοφοὶ ἢ οἱ ἀμαθεῖς; —
οἱ σοφοί,
ἔφη ὁ Κλεινίας. —
οἱ σοφοὶ ἄρα μανθάνουσιν ἀλλʼ οὐχ οἱ ἀμαθεῖς, καὶ οὐκ εὖ σὺ ἄρτι Εὐθυδήμῳ ἀπεκρίνω. ἐνταῦθα δὴ καὶ πάνυ μέγα ἐγέλασάν τε καὶ ἐθορύβησαν οἱ ἐρασταὶ τοῖν ἀνδροῖν, ἀγασθέντες τῆς σοφίας αὐτοῖν· οἱ δʼ ἄλλοι ἡμεῖς ἐκπεπληγμένοι ἐσιωπῶμεν.
And before the youth could fully recover his breath, Dionysodorus took over and said, "And what about this, Clinias? When the writing-master dictated to you, which of the children learned the dictation, the wise or the ignorant?" — "The wise," Clinias said. — "The wise then learn, and not the ignorant, and you did not answer Euthydemus correctly just now." At this point, the admirers of the two men laughed very loudly and cheered, admiring their wisdom; while the rest of us, dumbfounded, kept silent.
γνοὺς δὲ ἡμᾶς ὁ Εὐθύδημος ἐκπεπληγμένους, ἵνʼ ἔτι μᾶλλον θαυμάζοιμεν αὐτόν, οὐκ ἀνίει τὸ μειράκιον, ἀλλʼ ἠρώτα, καὶ ὥσπερ οἱ ἀγαθοὶ ὀρχησταί, διπλᾶ ἔστρεφε τὰ ἐρωτήματα περὶ τοῦ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔφη· πότερον γὰρ οἱ μανθάνοντες μανθάνουσιν ἃ ἐπίστανται ἢ ἃ μὴ ἐπίστανται; καὶ ὁ Διονυσόδωρος πάλιν μικρὸν πρός με ψιθυρίσας,
καὶ τοῦτʼ,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, ἕτερον τοιοῦτον οἷον τὸ πρότερον. ὦ Ζεῦ, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἦ μὴν καὶ τὸ πρότερόν γε καλὸν ἡμῖν ἐφάνη τὸ ἐρώτημα. πάντʼ,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, τοιαῦτα ἡμεῖς ἐρωτῶμεν ἄφυκτα. τοιγάρτοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, δοκεῖτέ μοι εὐδοκιμεῖν παρὰ τοῖς μαθηταῖς.
But Euthydemus, perceiving that we were dumbfounded, so that we might marvel at him still more, did not let the youth go, but kept questioning him, and, just like good dancers, turned the questions double around the same subject, and said: "For do those who learn learn what they know or what they do not know?" And Dionysodorus, again whispering a little to me, said, "This too, Socrates, is another one of the same sort as the first." "O Zeus," I said, "truly the former question also appeared fine to us." "Socrates," he said, "all the questions we ask are of this sort, inescapable." "That, no doubt," I said, "is why you seem to be so highly esteemed by your pupils."