§205εἶεν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Ἱππόθαλες, ὡς γενναῖον καὶ νεανικὸν τοῦτον τὸν ἔρωτα πανταχῇ ἀνηῦρες·
"Well," I said, "Hippothales, what a noble and high-spirited love this is that you have found in every way!
καί μοι ἴθι ἐπίδειξαι ἃ καὶ τοῖσδε ἐπιδείκνυσαι, ἵνα εἰδῶ εἰ ἐπίστασαι ἃ χρὴ ἐραστὴν περὶ παιδικῶν πρὸς αὐτὸν ἢ πρὸς ἄλλους λέγειν. τούτων δέ τι,
ἔφη,
σταθμᾷ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὧν ὅδε λέγει; πότερον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ τὸ ἐρᾶν ἔξαρνος εἶ οὗ λέγει ὅδε; οὐκ ἔγωγε,
ἔφη,
ἀλλὰ μὴ ποιεῖν εἰς τὰ παιδικὰ μηδὲ συγγράφειν. οὐχ ὑγιαίνει,
ἔφη ὁ Κτήσιππος,
ἀλλὰ ληρεῖ τε καὶ μαίνεται. καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· ὦ Ἱππόθαλες, οὔ τι τῶν μέτρων δέομαι ἀκοῦσαι οὐδὲ μέλος εἴ τι πεποίηκας εἰς τὸν νεανίσκον, ἀλλὰ τῆς διανοίας, ἵνα εἰδῶ τίνα τρόπον προσφέρῃ πρὸς τὰ παιδικά. ὅδε δήπου σοι,
ἔφη,
ἐρεῖ· ἀκριβῶς γὰρ ἐπίσταται καὶ μέμνηται, εἴπερ, ὡς λέγει, ὑπʼ ἐμοῦ ἀεὶ ἀκούων διατεθρύληται. νὴ τοὺς θεούς,
ἔφη ὁ Κτήσιππος,
πάνυ γε.
And come, show me what you show to these fellows also, so that I may know whether you understand what a lover ought to say about his beloved, to him or to others." "Do you weigh any of these things, Socrates," he said, "which this fellow says?" "Do you," I said, "deny even that you are in love, which this fellow says?" "Not I," he said, "but I deny making poems or writing compositions for my beloved." "He is not in his right mind," said Ctesippus, "but is talking nonsense and is mad." And I said: "Hippothales, I do not at all need to hear the verses or any song, if you have composed one for the youth, but rather your thoughts, so that I may know in what way you approach your beloved." "This fellow, I suppose," he said, "will tell you; for he knows and remembers accurately, if, as he says, he has been deafened by constantly hearing them from me." "By the gods," said Ctesippus, "absolutely!
καὶ γάρ ἐστι καταγέλαστα, ὦ Σώκρατες.
For it is utterly ridiculous, Socrates.
τὸ γὰρ ἐραστὴν ὄντα καὶ διαφερόντως τῶν ἄλλων τὸν νοῦν προσέχοντα τῷ παιδὶ ἴδιον μὲν μηδὲν ἔχειν λέγειν ὃ οὐχὶ κἂν παῖς εἴποι, πῶς οὐχὶ καταγέλαστον;
That a lover, who pays attention to the boy far more than others do, has nothing of his own to say which even a child could not say—how is that not ridiculous?
ἃ δὲ ἡ πόλις ὅλη ᾁδει περὶ Δημοκράτους καὶ Λύσιδος τοῦ πάππου τοῦ παιδὸς καὶ πάντων πέρι τῶν προγόνων, πλούτους τε καὶ ἱπποτροφίας καὶ νίκας Πυθοῖ καὶ Ἰσθμοῖ καὶ Νεμέᾳ τεθρίπποις τε καὶ κέλησι, ταῦτα ποιεῖ τε καὶ λέγει, πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἔτι τούτων κρονικώτερα.
The things that the whole city sings about Democrates and Lysis, the boy's grandfather, and all their ancestors—their wealth, their breeding of horses, and victories at Pytho, the Isthmus, and Nemea with four-horse chariots and single horses—these are the things he composes and speaks of, and besides these, things still more old-fashioned than these.
τὸν γὰρ τοῦ Ἡρακλέους ξενισμὸν πρῴην ἡμῖν ἐν ποιήματί τινι διῄει, ὡς διὰ τὴν τοῦ Ἡρακλέους συγγένειαν ὁ πρόγονος αὐτῶν ὑποδέξαιτο τὸν Ἡρακλέα, γεγονὼς αὐτὸς ἐκ Διός τε καὶ τῆς τοῦ δήμου ἀρχηγέτου θυγατρός, ἅπερ αἱ γραῖαι ᾁδουσι, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ τοιαῦτα, ὦ Σώκρατες·
For recently he was relating to us in some poem the hosting of Heracles, how, because of their kinship to Heracles, their ancestor received Heracles as a guest, having been born himself from Zeus and the daughter of the founder of the deme—just the sort of things old women sing—and many other such things, Socrates.
ταῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἃ οὗτος λέγων τε καὶ ᾁδων ἀναγκάζει καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀκροᾶσθαι. καὶ ἐγὼ ἀκούσας εἶπον· ὦ καταγέλαστε Ἱππόθαλες, πρὶν νενικηκέναι ποιεῖς τε καὶ ᾁδεις εἰς σαυτὸν ἐγκώμιον; ἀλλʼ οὐκ εἰς ἐμαυτόν,
ἔφη,
ὦ Σώκρατες, οὔτε ποιῶ οὔτε ᾁδω. οὐκ οἴει γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
These are the things which he, by speaking and singing them, forces us also to listen to." And I, having heard this, said: "O ridiculous Hippothales, before you have won, do you compose and sing a triumphal hymn to yourself?" "But it is not to myself," he said, "Socrates, that I either compose or sing." "You don't think so, at least," I said.
τὸ δὲ πῶς ἔχει; ἔφη.
"But how is it?" he said.
πάντων μάλιστα, εἶπον, εἰς σὲ τείνουσιν αὗται αἱ ᾠδαί. §206ἐὰν μὲν γὰρ ἕλῃς τὰ παιδικὰ τοιαῦτα ὄντα, κόσμος σοι ἔσται τὰ λεχθέντα καὶ ᾀσθέντα καὶ τῷ ὄντι ἐγκώμια ὥσπερ νενικηκότι, ὅτι τοιούτων παιδικῶν ἔτυχες·
"Most of all," I said, "these songs tend to your own case." "For if you win your beloved, being such as he is, what has been said and sung will be an ornament to you and truly a triumphal hymn as to a victor, because you succeeded with such a beloved.
ἐὰν δέ σε διαφύγῃ, ὅσῳ ἂν μείζω σοι εἰρημένα ᾖ ἐγκώμια περὶ τῶν παιδικῶν, τοσούτῳ μειζόνων δόξεις καλῶν τε καὶ ἀγαθῶν ἐστερημένος καταγέλαστος εἶναι.
But if he escapes you, the greater the praises spoken by you about your beloved, by so much the more will you seem to have been deprived of great and noble things, and so to be ridiculous.
ὅστις οὖν τὰ ἐρωτικά, ὦ φίλε, σοφός, οὐκ ἐπαινεῖ τὸν ἐρώμενον πρὶν ἂν ἕλῃ, δεδιὼς τὸ μέλλον ὅπῃ ἀποβήσεται.
Therefore, my friend, whoever is wise in love-matters does not praise the beloved before winning him, fearing how the future will turn out.
καὶ ἅμα οἱ καλοί, ἐπειδάν τις αὐτοὺς ἐπαινῇ καὶ αὔξῃ, φρονήματος ἐμπίμπλανται καὶ μεγαλαυχίας· ἢ οὐκ οἴει; ἔγωγε,
ἔφη.
And at the same time, the handsome ones, when someone praises and exalts them, are filled with pride and haughtiness; or do you not think so?" "I do indeed," he said.
οὐκοῦν ὅσῳ ἂν μεγαλαυχότεροι ὦσιν, δυσαλωτότεροι γίγνονται; εἰκός γε. ποῖός τις οὖν ἄν σοι δοκεῖ θηρευτὴς εἶναι, εἰ ἀνασοβοῖ θηρεύων καὶ δυσαλωτοτέραν τὴν ἄγραν ποιοῖ; δῆλον ὅτι φαῦλος.
"Are they not, then, the more haughty they become, the harder to catch?" "Most likely." "What kind of hunter, then, would you think him to be, if in hunting he should scare away his prey and make it harder to catch?
καὶ μὲν δὴ λόγοις τε καὶ ᾠδαῖς μὴ κηλεῖν ἀλλʼ ἐξαγριαίνειν πολλὴ ἀμουσία· ἦ γάρ; δοκεῖ μοι. σκόπει δή, ὦ Ἱππόθαλες, ὅπως μὴ πᾶσι τούτοις ἔνοχον σαυτὸν ποιήσεις διὰ τὴν ποίησιν·
""Clearly a bad one." "And indeed, by words and songs not to charm but to make wild is great lack of skill; is it not?" "It seems so to me." "Look to it then, Hippothales, lest you make yourself liable to all these charges because of your poetry.
καίτοι οἶμαι ἐγὼ ἄνδρα ποιήσει βλάπτοντα ἑαυτὸν οὐκ ἄν σε ἐθέλειν ὁμολογῆσαι ὡς ἀγαθός ποτʼ ἐστὶν ποιητής, βλαβερὸς ὢν ἑαυτῷ. οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία,
ἔφη· πολλὴ γὰρ ἂν ἀλογία εἴη.
And yet I think you would not be willing to admit that a man who harms himself by his composing is ever a good poet, since he is harmful to himself." "No, by Zeus," he said, "for that would be a great absurdity.
ἀλλὰ διὰ ταῦτα δή σοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀνακοινοῦμαι, καὶ εἴ τι ἄλλο ἔχεις, συμβούλευε τίνα ἄν τις λόγον διαλεγόμενος ἢ τί πράττων προσφιλὴς παιδικοῖς γένοιτο. οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, εἰπεῖν· ἀλλʼ εἴ μοι ἐθελήσαις αὐτὸν ποιῆσαι εἰς λόγους ἐλθεῖν, ἴσως ἂν δυναίμην σοι ἐπιδεῖξαι ἃ χρὴ αὐτῷ διαλέγεσθαι ἀντὶ τούτων ὧν οὗτοι λέγειν τε καὶ ᾁδειν φασί σε. ἀλλʼ οὐδέν,
ἔφη,
χαλεπόν.
But it is for this very reason, Socrates, that I communicate with you, and if you have anything else to offer, advise me what discourse one should hold or what one should do to become dear to his beloved." "It is not easy," I said, "to tell; but if you would be willing to make him come into conversation with me, perhaps I might be able to show you what one ought to say to him, instead of these things which these men say you speak and sing." "But there is nothing," he said, "difficult about that.
ἂν γὰρ εἰσέλθῃς μετὰ Κτησίππου τοῦδε καὶ καθεζόμενος διαλέγῃ, οἶμαι μὲν καὶ αὐτός σοι πρόσεισι—φιλήκοος γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, διαφερόντως ἐστίν, καὶ ἅμα, ὡς Ἑρμαῖα ἄγουσιν, ἀναμεμειγμένοι ἐν ταὐτῷ εἰσιν οἵ τε νεανίσκοι καὶ οἱ παῖδες—πρόσεισιν οὖν σοι.
For if you go in with Ctesippus here, and sit down and talk, I think he will come to you of his own accord—for he is extremely fond of listening, Socrates, and besides, as they are celebrating the Hermaea, the young men and boys are all mixed up together—so he will come to you.
εἰ δὲ μή, Κτησίππῳ συνήθης ἐστὶν διὰ τὸν τούτου ἀνεψιὸν Μενέξενον· Μενεξένῳ μὲν γὰρ δὴ πάντων μάλιστα ἑταῖρος ὢν τυγχάνει.
And if not, he is familiar with Ctesippus through Ctesippus' cousin Menexenus; for he happens to be Menexenus' companion most of all.
καλεσάτω οὖν οὗτος αὐτόν, ἐὰν ἄρα μὴ προσίῃ αὐτός. ταῦτα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, χρὴ ποιεῖν. καὶ ἅμα λαβὼν τὸν Κτήσιππον προσῇα εἰς τὴν παλαίστραν· οἱ δʼ ἄλλοι ὕστεροι ἡμῶν ᾖσαν.
So let Ctesippus call him, if he does not come of his own accord." "That," I said, "is what we must do." And at the same time, taking Ctesippus, I went to the palaestra; and the others followed behind us.
εἰσελθόντες δὲ κατελάβομεν αὐτόθι τεθυκότας τε τοὺς παῖδας καὶ τὰ περὶ τὰ ἱερεῖα σχεδόν τι ἤδη πεποιημένα, ἀστραγαλίζοντάς τε δὴ καὶ κεκοσμημένους ἅπαντας.
And when we entered, we found there that the boys had finished sacrificing, and the business of the victims was already nearly completed, and they were all playing at knuckle-bones and dressed in their best clothes.
οἱ μὲν οὖν πολλοὶ ἐν τῇ αὐλῇ ἔπαιζον ἔξω, οἱ δέ τινες τοῦ ἀποδυτηρίου ἐν γωνίᾳ ἠρτίαζον ἀστραγάλοις παμπόλλοις, ἐκ φορμίσκων τινῶν προαιρούμενοι· τούτους δὲ περιέστασαν ἄλλοι θεωροῦντες.
Most of them, then, were playing outside in the courtyard, but some of them in a corner of the dressing-room were playing odd-and-even with a vast quantity of knuckle-bones, which they took out of small baskets; and others stood around them, looking on.