§186ΛΑ. τοῦτο μὲν ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Laches: That, indeed, is true.
ΣΩ. καὶ ἡμᾶς ἄρα δεῖ, ὦ Λάχης τε καὶ Νικία—ἐπειδὴ Λυσίμαχος καὶ Μελησίας εἰς συμβουλὴν παρεκαλεσάτην ἡμᾶς περὶ τοῖν ὑέοιν, προθυμούμενοι αὐτοῖν ὅτι ἀρίστας γενέσθαι τὰς ψυχάς—εἰ μέν φαμεν ἔχειν, ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτοῖς καὶ διδασκάλους οἵτινες αὐτοὶ πρῶτον ἀγαθοὶ ὄντες καὶ πολλῶν νέων τεθεραπευκότες ψυχὰς ἔπειτα καὶ ἡμᾶς διδάξαντες φαίνονται· ἢ εἴ τις ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ἑαυτῷ διδάσκαλον μὲν οὔ φησι γεγονέναι, ἀλλʼ οὖν ἔργα αὐτὸν αὑτοῦ ἔχειν εἰπεῖν καὶ ἐπιδεῖξαι τίνες Ἀθηναίων ἢ τῶν ξένων, ἢ δοῦλοι ἢ ἐλεύθεροι, διʼ ἐκεῖνον ὁμολογουμένως ἀγαθοὶ γεγόνασιν· εἰ δὲ μηδὲν ἡμῖν τούτων ὑπάρχει, ἄλλους κελεύειν ζητεῖν καὶ μὴ ἐν ἑταίρων ἀνδρῶν ὑέσιν κινδυνεύειν διαφθείροντας τὴν μεγίστην αἰτίαν ἔχειν ὑπὸ τῶν οἰκειοτάτων.
Socrates: And so we also must, Laches and Nicias—since Lysimachus and Melesias invited us to give advice about their two sons, desiring that their souls should become as good as possible—if we claim to possess the expertise, show them also our teachers, who, being themselves good first and having cared for the souls of many young men, then also appear to have taught us; or if any of us says he has had no teacher for himself, but yet is able to state and show his own works, which of the Athenians or foreigners, slaves or freemen, have admittedly become good because of him; but if nothing of this is available to us, we must bid them to seek others, and not run the risk with the sons of companion men of corrupting them and having the greatest blame from those closest to them.
ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν, ὦ Λυσίμαχέ τε καὶ Μελησία, πρῶτος περὶ ἐμαυτοῦ λέγω ὅτι διδάσκαλός μοι οὐ γέγονε τούτου πέρι.
I, therefore, Lysimachus and Melesias, first say about myself that no teacher has arisen for me in this matter.
καίτοι ἐπιθυμῶ γε τοῦ πράγματος ἐκ νέου ἀρξάμενος.
And yet, I have desired this thing, starting from my youth.
ἀλλὰ τοῖς μὲν σοφισταῖς οὐκ ἔχω τελεῖν μισθούς, οἵπερ μόνοι ἐπηγγέλλοντό με οἷοί τʼ εἶναι ποιῆσαι καλόν τε κἀγαθόν· αὐτὸς δʼ αὖ εὑρεῖν τὴν τέχνην ἀδυνατῶ ἔτι νυνί.
But I cannot pay fees to the sophists, who alone professed to be able to make me noble and good; and I myself am still unable to find the art even now.
εἰ δὲ Νικίας ἢ Λάχης ηὕρηκεν ἢ μεμάθηκεν, οὐκ ἂν θαυμάσαιμι· καὶ γὰρ χρήμασιν ἐμοῦ δυνατώτεροι, ὥστε μαθεῖν παρʼ ἄλλων, καὶ ἅμα πρεσβύτεροι, ὥστε ἤδη ηὑρηκέναι.
But if Nicias or Laches has found or learned it, I would not wonder; for they are both wealthier than I, so as to learn from others, and at the same time older, so as to have already found it.
δοκοῦσι δή μοι δυνατοὶ εἶναι παιδεῦσαι ἄνθρωπον· οὐ γὰρ ἄν ποτε ἀδεῶς ἀπεφαίνοντο περὶ ἐπιτηδευμάτων νέῳ χρηστῶν τε καὶ πονηρῶν, εἰ μὴ αὑτοῖς ἐπίστευον ἱκανῶς εἰδέναι.
They seem indeed to me to be capable of educating a human; for they would never have fearlessly declared about beneficial and harmful pursuits for a youth, unless they trusted themselves to know sufficiently.
τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα ἔγωγε τούτοις πιστεύω· ὅτι δὲ διαφέρεσθον ἀλλήλοιν, ἐθαύμασα.
For my part, in other things I trust them; but that they differ from one another, I wonder.
τοῦτο οὖν σου ἐγὼ ἀντιδέομαι, ὦ Λυσίμαχε· καθάπερ ἄρτι Λάχης μὴ ἀφίεσθαί σε ἐμοῦ διεκελεύετο ἀλλὰ ἐρωτᾶν, καὶ ἐγὼ νῦν παρακελεύομαί σοι μὴ ἀφίεσθαι Λάχητος μηδὲ Νικίου, ἀλλʼ ἐρωτᾶν λέγοντα ὅτι ὁ μὲν Σωκράτης οὔ φησιν ἐπαΐειν περὶ τοῦ πράγματος οὐδʼ ἱκανὸς εἶναι διακρῖναι ὁπότερος ὑμῶν ἀληθῆ λέγει—οὔτε γὰρ εὑρετὴς οὔτε μαθητὴς οὐδενὸς περὶ τῶν τοιούτων γεγονέναι— §187ΣΩ. σὺ δʼ, ὦ Λάχης καὶ Νικία, εἴπετον ἡμῖν ἑκάτερος τίνι δὴ δεινοτάτῳ συγγεγόνατον περὶ τῆς τῶν νέων τροφῆς, καὶ πότερα μαθόντε παρά του ἐπίστασθον ἢ αὐτὼ ἐξευρόντε, καὶ εἰ μὲν μαθόντε, τίς ὁ διδάσκαλος ἑκατέρῳ καὶ τίνες ἄλλοι ὁμότεχνοι αὐτοῖς, ἵνʼ, ἂν μὴ ὑμῖν σχολὴ ᾖ ὑπὸ τῶν τῆς πόλεως πραγμάτων, ἐπʼ ἐκείνους ἴωμεν καὶ πείθωμεν ἢ δώροις ἢ χάρισιν ἢ ἀμφότερα ἐπιμεληθῆναι καὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων καὶ τῶν ὑμετέρων παίδων, ὅπως μὴ καταισχύνωσι τοὺς αὑτῶν προγόνους φαῦλοι γενόμενοι·
This, then, Lysimachus, I ask you in return; just as earlier Laches was urging you not to let me go but to ask, I too now exhort you not to let Laches or Nicias go, but to ask them, saying that Socrates says he does not understand the matter, nor is he capable of deciding which of you speaks the truth—for he has become neither a discoverer nor a learner of anything about such things— Socrates: but you, Laches and Nicias, tell us, each of you, with what most skilled person you have associated in the nurture of the young, and whether you know this by learning from someone or by finding it out yourselves; and if by learning, who was the teacher of each, and who are their fellow craftsmen, so that, if you do not have leisure because of the affairs of the city, we may go to them and persuade them, either with gifts or favors or both, to care for both our children and your children, so that they may not shame their own ancestors by becoming base; but if you yourselves have become discoverers of such a thing, give us an example of which others you have already cared for and made noble and good from being base.
εἰ δʼ αὐτοὶ εὑρεταὶ γεγονότε τοῦ τοιούτου, δότε παράδειγμα τίνων ἤδη ἄλλων ἐπιμεληθέντες ἐκ φαύλων καλούς τε κἀγαθοὺς ἐποιήσατε. εἰ γὰρ νῦν πρῶτον ἄρξεσθε παιδεύειν, σκοπεῖν χρὴ μὴ οὐκ ἐν τῷ Καρὶ ὑμῖν ὁ κίνδυνος κινδυνεύηται, ἀλλʼ ἐν τοῖς ὑέσι τε καὶ ἐν τοῖς τῶν φίλων παισί, καὶ ἀτεχνῶς τὸ λεγόμενον κατὰ τὴν παροιμίαν ὑμῖν συμβαίνῃ ἐν πίθῳ ἡ κεραμεία γιγνομένη.
For if you are now going to begin educating for the first time, you must examine whether the danger is not being run in the person of a Carian, but in your own sons and the children of your friends, and whether literally what is said in the proverb happens to you: that the pottery-making is being done in a jar.
λέγετε οὖν τί τούτων ἢ φατὲ ὑμῖν ὑπάρχειν τε καὶ προσήκειν ἢ οὔ φατε.
Say, therefore, which of these you claim to belong and apply to you, or you deny.
ταῦτʼ, ὦ Λυσίμαχε, παρʼ αὐτῶν πυνθάνου τε καὶ μὴ μεθίει τοὺς ἄνδρας.
Ask them these things, Lysimachus, and do not let the men go.
ΛΥ. καλῶς μὲν ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ὦ ἄνδρες, Σωκράτης λέγειν· εἰ δὲ βουλομένοις ὑμῖν ἐστι περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἐρωτᾶσθαί τε καὶ διδόναι λόγον, αὐτοὺς δὴ χρὴ γιγνώσκειν, ὦ Νικία τε καὶ Λάχης.
Lysimachus: Socrates seems to me to speak well, gentlemen; but if it is your wish to be questioned about such things and to give an account, you yourselves indeed must judge, Nicias and Laches.
ἐμοὶ μὲν γὰρ καὶ Μελησίᾳ τῷδε δῆλον ὅτι ἡδομένοις ἂν εἴη εἰ πάντα ἃ Σωκράτης ἐρωτᾷ ἐθέλοιτε λόγῳ διεξιέναι· καὶ γὰρ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἐντεῦθεν ἠρχόμην λέγων, ὅτι εἰς συμβουλὴν διὰ ταῦτα ὑμᾶς παρακαλέσαιμεν, ὅτι μεμεληκέναι ὑμῖν ἡγούμεθα, ὡς εἰκός, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων, καὶ ἄλλως καὶ ἐπειδὴ οἱ παῖδες ὑμῖν ὀλίγου ὥσπερ οἱ ἡμέτεροι ἡλικίαν ἔχουσι παιδεύεσθαι.
For to Melesias here and to me, it is clear that we would be pleased if you would be willing to go through in discussion all that Socrates asks; for indeed from the beginning I started from here in saying that we invited you to give advice for this reason, because we thought that you have cared, as is likely, about such things, and otherwise and since your children are almost of the age to be educated like ours.
εἰ οὖν ὑμῖν μή τι διαφέρει, εἴπατε καὶ κοινῇ μετὰ Σωκράτους σκέψασθε, διδόντες τε καὶ δεχόμενοι λόγον παρʼ ἀλλήλων· εὖ γὰρ καὶ τοῦτο λέγει ὅδε, ὅτι περὶ τοῦ μεγίστου νῦν βουλευόμεθα τῶν ἡμετέρων.
If, therefore, it makes no difference to you, speak and examine in common with Socrates, giving and receiving an account from one another; for he says this well too, that we are now deliberating about the greatest of our possessions.
ἀλλʼ ὁρᾶτε εἰ δοκεῖ χρῆναι οὕτω ποιεῖν.
But see if it seems necessary to do so.
ΝΙ. ὦ Λυσίμαχε, δοκεῖς μοι ὡς ἀληθῶς Σωκράτη πατρόθεν γιγνώσκειν μόνον, αὐτῷ δʼ οὐ συγγεγονέναι ἀλλʼ ἢ παιδὶ ὄντι, εἴ που ἐν τοῖς δημόταις μετὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἀκολουθῶν ἐπλησίασέν σοι ἢ ἐν ἱερῷ ἢ ἐν ἄλλῳ τῳ συλλόγῳ τῶν δημοτῶν· ἐπειδὴ δὲ πρεσβύτερος γέγονεν, οὐκ ἐντετυχηκὼς τῷ ἀνδρὶ δῆλος ἔτι εἶ.
Nicias: Lysimachus, you seem to me to truly know Socrates only from his father's side, but not to have associated with him himself, except perhaps when he was a boy, if he approached you somewhere among the demesmen following his father, either in a temple or in some other gathering of the demesmen; but since he has become older, you are clearly not having met the man yet.
ΛΥ. τί μάλιστα, ὦ Νικία;
Lysimachus: Why especially, Nicias?