§185ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ νῦν χρὴ πρῶτον αὐτὸ τοῦτο σκέψασθαι, εἰ ἔστιν τις ἡμῶν τεχνικὸς περὶ οὗ βουλευόμεθα ἢ οὔ· καὶ εἰ μὲν ἔστιν, ἐκείνῳ πείθεσθαι ἑνὶ ὄντι, τοὺς δʼ ἄλλους ἐᾶν, εἰ δὲ μή, ἄλλον τινὰ ζητεῖν.
Socrates: Therefore, now too, we must first examine this very thing, whether one of us is an expert in that about which we are deliberating, or not; and if there is one, we should obey him, though he is only one, and dismiss the others; but if not, we must seek someone else.
ἢ περὶ σμικροῦ οἴεσθε νυνὶ κινδυνεύειν καὶ σὺ καὶ Λυσίμαχος ἀλλʼ οὐ περὶ τούτου τοῦ κτήματος ὃ τῶν ὑμετέρων μέγιστον ὂν τυγχάνει;
Or do you and Lysimachus think that you are now risking a small matter, and not that possession of yours which happens to be the greatest of all?
ὑέων γάρ που ἢ χρηστῶν ἢ τἀναντία γενομένων καὶ πᾶς ὁ οἶκος ὁ τοῦ πατρὸς οὕτως οἰκήσεται, ὁποῖοι ἄν τινες οἱ παῖδες γένωνται.
For, surely, according as the sons turn out either good or the opposite, the whole household of the father will also be managed accordingly, depending on what sort of men the children become.
ΜΕ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Melesias: You speak the truth.
ΣΩ. πολλὴν ἄρα δεῖ προμηθίαν αὐτοῦ ἔχειν.
Socrates: Therefore, we must have much foresight for this.
ΜΕ. πάνυ γε.
Melesias: Certainly.
ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν, ὃ ἐγὼ ἄρτι ἔλεγον, ἐσκοποῦμεν ἄν, εἰ ἐβουλόμεθα σκέψασθαι τίς ἡμῶν περὶ ἀγωνίαν τεχνικώτατος;
Socrates: How then, as I was saying just now, would we examine, if we wished to consider which of us is the most expert in athletic training?
ἆρʼ οὐχ ὁ μαθὼν καὶ ἐπιτηδεύσας, ᾧ καὶ διδάσκαλοι ἀγαθοὶ γεγονότες ἦσαν αὐτοῦ τούτου;
Would it not be the one who has learned and practiced, and who has had good teachers of this very thing?
ΜΕ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Melesias: So it seems to me.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἔτι πρότερον, τίνος ὄντος τούτου ζητοῦμεν τοὺς διδασκάλους;
Socrates: Then, even before that, should we not inquire what this thing is for which we are seeking the teachers?
ΜΕ. πῶς λέγεις;
Melesias: What do you mean?
ΣΩ. ὧδε ἴσως μᾶλλον κατάδηλον ἔσται.
Socrates: Perhaps in this way it will be clearer.
οὔ μοι δοκεῖ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἡμῖν ὡμολογῆσθαι τί ποτʼ ἔστιν περὶ οὗ βουλευόμεθα, ὅστις ἡμῶν τεχνικὸς καὶ τούτου ἕνεκα διδασκάλους ἐκτήσατο, καὶ ὅστις μή.
It does not seem to me that we have agreed from the beginning what indeed it is about which we are deliberating, so as to search for who among us is an expert and has acquired teachers for the sake of this, and who has not.
ΝΙ. οὐ γάρ, ὦ Σώκρατες, περὶ τοῦ ἐν ὅπλοις μάχεσθαι σκοποῦμεν, εἴτε χρὴ αὐτὸ τοὺς νεανίσκους μανθάνειν εἴτε μή;
Nicias: Why, Socrates, are we not examining about fighting in armor, whether the young men ought to learn it or not?
ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ὦ Νικία.
Socrates: Certainly indeed, Nicias.
ἀλλʼ ὅταν περὶ φαρμάκου τίς του πρὸς ὀφθαλμοὺς σκοπῆται, εἴτε χρὴ αὐτὸ ὑπαλείφεσθαι εἴτε μή, πότερον οἴει τότε εἶναι τὴν βουλὴν περὶ τοῦ φαρμάκου ἢ περὶ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν;
But when someone examines about a medicine for eyes, whether it ought to be applied or not, do you think that the consultation then is about the medicine or about the eyes?
ΝΙ. περὶ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν.
Nicias: About the eyes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὅταν ἵππῳ χαλινὸν σκοπῆταί τις εἰ προσοιστέον ἢ μή, καὶ ὁπότε, τότε που περὶ τοῦ ἵππου βουλεύεται ἀλλʼ οὐ περὶ τοῦ χαλινοῦ;
Socrates: And when someone examines whether a bridle should be applied to a horse or not, and when, is he not then deliberating about the horse, and not about the bridle?
ΝΙ. ἀληθῆ.
Nicias: True.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἑνὶ λόγῳ, ὅταν τίς τι ἕνεκά του σκοπῇ, περὶ ἐκείνου ἡ βουλὴ τυγχάνει οὖσα οὗ ἕνεκα ἐσκόπει, ἀλλʼ οὐ περὶ τοῦ ὃ ἕνεκα ἄλλου ἐζήτει.
Socrates: Therefore, in a word, whenever someone examines one thing for the sake of another, the consultation is actually about that for the sake of which he was examining, and not about that which he was seeking for the sake of something else.
ΝΙ. ἀνάγκη.
Nicias: Inevitably.
ΣΩ. δεῖ ἄρα καὶ τὸν σύμβουλον σκοπεῖν ἆρα τεχνικός ἐστιν εἰς ἐκείνου θεραπείαν, οὗ ἕνεκα σκοπούμενοι σκοποῦμεν.
Socrates: Therefore, we must also examine whether the advisor is an expert in the care of that, for the sake of which we are examining what we examine.
ΝΙ. πάνυ γε.
Nicias: Certainly.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν νῦν φαμεν περὶ μαθήματος σκοπεῖν τῆς ψυχῆς ἕνεκα τῆς τῶν νεανίσκων;
Socrates: Now then, do we say that we are examining about a study for the sake of the soul of the young men?
ΝΙ. ναί.
Nicias: Yes.
ΣΩ. εἴ τις ἄρα ἡμῶν τεχνικὸς περὶ ψυχῆς θεραπείαν καὶ οἷός τε καλῶς τοῦτο θεραπεῦσαι, καὶ ὅτῳ διδάσκαλοι ἀγαθοὶ γεγόνασιν, τοῦτο σκεπτέον.
Socrates: Therefore, we must examine whether any of us is an expert in the care of the soul and capable of caring for it well, and who has had good teachers.
ΛΑ. τί δέ, ὦ Σώκρατες;
Laches: But what of this, Socrates?
οὔπω ἑώρακας ἄνευ διδασκάλων τεχνικωτέρους γεγονότας εἰς ἔνια ἢ μετὰ διδασκάλων;
Have you never seen people who, without teachers, have become more expert in some things than those with teachers?
ΣΩ. ἔγωγε, ὦ Λάχης· οἷς γε σὺ οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοις πιστεῦσαι, εἰ φαῖεν ἀγαθοὶ εἶναι δημιουργοί, εἰ μή τί σοι τῆς αὑτῶν τέχνης ἔργον ἔχοιεν ἐπιδεῖξαι εὖ εἰργασμένον, καὶ ἓν καὶ πλείω.
Socrates: I have indeed, Laches; but you would not be willing to believe them if they claimed to be good craftsmen, unless they could show you some well-wrought work of their own art, both one and many.