§134πῶς γὰρ ἄν, ἔφη, ἀπό γε ὀλίγων πόνων τὸ σῶμά τις εὖ ἔχοι; καί μοι ἔδοξεν ἤδη ἐνταῦθα κινητέος εἶναι ὁ φιλογυμναστής, ἵνα μοι βοηθήσῃ διὰ τὴν ἐμπειρίαν τῆς γυμναστικῆς·
"For how indeed," he said, "could anyone have his body in a good condition from few labors?" And it seemed to me that right here the lover of gymnastics ought to be set in motion, so that he might help me through his experience of gymnastics.
κἄπειτα ἠρόμην αὐτόν, σὺ δὲ δὴ τί σιγᾷς ἡμῖν, ὦ λῷστε, τούτου ταῦτα λέγοντος;
And then I asked him: "But why on earth are you keeping silent for us, my good friend, when this man says these things?
ἢ καὶ σοὶ δοκοῦσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι εὖ τὰ σώματα ἔχειν ἀπὸ τῶν πολλῶν πόνων, ἢ ἀπὸ τῶν μετρίων; ἐγὼ μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, ᾤμην τὸ λεγόμενον δὴ τοῦτο κἂν ὗν γνῶναι ὅτι οἱ μέτριοι πόνοι εὖ ποιοῦσιν ἔχειν τὰ σώματα, πόθεν δὴ οὐχὶ ἄνδρα γε ἄγρυπνόν τε καὶ ἄσιτον καὶ ἀτριβῆ τὸν τράχηλον ἔχοντα καὶ λεπτὸν ὑπὸ μεριμνῶν; καὶ αὐτοῦ ταῦτα εἰπόντος ἥσθη τὰ μειράκια καὶ ἐπεγέλασεν, ὁ δʼ ἕτερος ἠρυθρίασε.
Or does it seem to you too that men have their bodies in a good condition from many labors, or from moderate ones?" "I, Socrates," he said, "thought that, as the saying goes, even a pig could know this, that moderate labors make the body in a good condition; how much more, then, should a man who is sleepless, starved, with an unrubbed neck, and thin from worries, not know it?" And when he said this, the youths were delighted and laughed, and the other one blushed.
καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί οὖν;
And I said: "Well then?
σὺ ἤδη συγχωρεῖς μήτε πολλοὺς μήτε ὀλίγους πόνους εὖ ποιεῖν ἔχειν τὰ σώματα τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, ἀλλὰ τοὺς μετρίους;
Do you now concede that neither many nor few labors make men's bodies in a good condition, but moderate ones?
ἢ διαμάχῃ δυοῖν ὄντοιν νῷν περὶ τοῦ λόγου; κἀκεῖνος, πρὸς μὲν τοῦτον, ἔφη, κἂν πάνυ ἡδέως διαγωνισαίμην, καὶ εὖ οἶδʼ ὅτι ἱκανὸς ἂν γενοίμην βοηθῆσαι τῇ ὑποθέσει ἣν ὑπεθέμην, καὶ εἰ ταύτης ἔτι φαυλοτέραν ὑπεθέμην—οὐδὲν γάρ ἐστι—πρὸς μέντοι σὲ οὐδὲν δέομαι παρὰ δόξαν φιλονικεῖν, ἀλλʼ ὁμολογῶ μὴ τὰ πολλὰ ἀλλὰ τὰ μέτρια γυμνάσια τὴν εὐεξίαν ἐμποιεῖν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις.
Or do you fight against the two of us over this argument?" And he said: "Against this man, indeed, I would fight quite gladly, and I know well that I would be capable of defending the hypothesis which I laid down, even if I had laid down one still poorer than this—for he is nothing—however, against you I have no desire to contend contrary to my belief, but I admit that not many but moderate exercises produce good condition in men." "And what about food?
τί δὲ τὰ σιτία; τὰ μέτρια ἢ τὰ πολλά; ἔφην ἐγώ.
The moderate or the much?" I said.
καὶ τὰ σιτία ὡμολόγει.
And he admitted it about food too.
ἔτι δὲ κἀγὼ προσηνάγκαζον αὐτὸν ὁμολογεῖν καὶ τἆλλα πάντα τὰ περὶ τὸ σῶμα ὠφελιμώτατα εἶναι τὰ μέτρια ἀλλὰ μὴ τὰ πολλὰ μηδὲ τὰ ὀλίγα· καί μοι ὡμολόγει τὰ μέτρια.
And I further constrained him to admit that all other things concerning the body too, the moderate ones, and neither the many nor the few, are most beneficial; and he admitted the moderate ones to me.
τί δʼ, ἔφην, τὰ περὶ τὴν ψυχήν;
"And what," I said, "about the things concerning the soul?
τὰ μέτρια ὠφελεῖ ἢ τὰ ἄμετρα τῶν προσφερομένων; τὰ μέτρια, ἔφη.
Do the moderate or the immoderate of the things administered to it benefit?" "The moderate," he said.
οὐκοῦν ἓν τῶν προσφερομένων ψυχῇ ἐστι καὶ τὰ μαθήματα; ὡμολόγει.
"Is not learning also one of the things administered to the soul?" He admitted it.
καὶ τούτων ἄρα τὰ μέτρια ὠφελεῖ ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ πολλά; συνέφη.
"And of these then, do the moderate benefit, but not the many?" He agreed.
τίνα οὖν ἐρόμενοι ἂν δικαίως ἐροίμεθα ὁποῖοι μέτριοι πόνοι καὶ σιτία πρὸς τὸ σῶμά ἐστιν; ὡμολογοῦμεν μὲν τρεῖς ὄντες, ὅτι ἰατρὸν ἢ παιδοτρίβην.
"Whom then should we ask, to ask rightly, what sort of labors and food are moderate for the body?" We agreed, being three, that it was a doctor or a trainer.
τίνα δʼ ἂν περὶ σπερμάτων σπορᾶς ὁπόσον μέτριον; καὶ τούτου τὸν γεωργὸν ὡμολογοῦμεν.
"And whom about the sowing of seed, as to how much is moderate?" And of this, we agreed it was the farmer.
τίνα δὲ περὶ μαθημάτων εἰς ψυχὴν φυτεύσεώς τε καὶ σπορᾶς ἐρωτῶντες δικαίως ἂν ἐροίμεθα ὁπόσα καὶ ὁποῖα μέτρια; §135τοὐντεῦθεν ἤδη ἀπορίας μεστοὶ ἦμεν ἅπαντες·
"And whom, in asking about the planting and sowing of studies into the soul, should we ask rightly, as to how many and what sort are moderate?" Thereupon we were all already full of difficulty.
κἀγὼ προσπαίζων αὐτοὺς ἠρόμην, βούλεσθε, ἔφην, ἐπειδὴ ἡμεῖς ἐν ἀπορίᾳ ἐσμέν, ἐρώμεθα ταυτὶ τὰ μειράκια;
And playing with them, I asked: "Do you wish, since we are in difficulty, that we ask these youths here?
ἢ ἴσως αἰσχυνόμεθα, ὥσπερ ἔφη τοὺς μνηστῆρας Ὅμηρος, μὴ ἀξιούντων εἶναί τινα ἄλλον ὅστις ἐντενεῖ τὸ τόξον; ἐπειδὴ οὖν μοι ἐδόκουν ἀθυμεῖν πρὸς τὸν λόγον, ἄλλῃ ἐπειρώμην σκοπεῖν, καὶ εἶπον, ποῖα δὲ μάλιστα ἄττα τοπάζομεν εἶναι τῶν μαθημάτων ἃ δεῖ τὸν φιλοσοφοῦντα μανθάνειν, ἐπειδὴ οὐχὶ πάντα οὐδὲ πολλά; ὑπολαβὼν οὖν ὁ σοφώτερος εἶπεν ὅτι κάλλιστα ταῦτʼ εἴη τῶν μαθημάτων καὶ προσήκοντα ἀφʼ ὧν ἂν πλείστην δόξαν ἔχοι τις εἰς φιλοσοφίαν· πλείστην δʼ ἂν ἔχοι δόξαν, εἰ δοκοίη τῶν τεχνῶν ἔμπειρος εἶναι πασῶν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὡς πλείστων γε καὶ μάλιστα τῶν ἀξιολόγων, μαθὼν αὐτῶν ταῦτα ἃ προσήκει τοῖς ἐλευθέροις μαθεῖν, ὅσα συνέσεως ἔχεται, μὴ ὅσα χειρουργίας.
Or are we perhaps ashamed, as Homer said of the suitors, who did not deign that there should be anyone else who would bend the bow?" Since therefore they seemed to me to be discouraged at the argument, I tried to examine it in another way, and said: "And what sort of studies, especially, do we guess them to be, which the one who practices philosophy must learn, since they are neither all nor many?" Thereupon the wiser one answered and said that those studies are the most beautiful and fitting from which one would have the greatest reputation for philosophy; and one would have the greatest reputation if he should seem to be experienced in all arts, or if not, in as many as possible and especially the noteworthy ones, having learned of them those things which are fitting for free men to learn, as many as pertain to understanding, not as many as pertain to manual work.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὕτω λέγεις, ἔφην ἐγώ, ὥσπερ ἐν τῇ τεκτονικῇ;
"Do you mean then," I said, "something like what happens in carpentry?
καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖ τέκτονα μὲν ἂν πρίαιο πέντε ἢ ἓξ μνῶν, ἄκρον ἀρχιτέκτονα δὲ οὐδʼ ἂν μυρίων δραχμῶν· ὀλίγοι γε μὴν κἂν ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς Ἕλλησι γίγνοιντο.
For there indeed you might buy a carpenter for five or six minae, but a master builder not even for ten thousand drachmae; indeed, few of them would be found in the whole of Greece.
ἆρα μή τι τοιοῦτον λέγεις; καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας μου συνεχώρει καὶ αὐτὸς λέγειν τοιοῦτον.
Do you mean something of this sort?" And he, having heard me, conceded that he himself meant something of this sort.
ἠρόμην δʼ αὐτὸν εἰ οὐκ ἀδύνατον εἴη δύο μόνας τέχνας οὕτω μαθεῖν τὸν αὐτόν, μὴ ὅτι πολλὰς καὶ μεγάλας· ὁ δέ, μὴ οὕτως μου, ἔφη, ὑπολάβῃς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς λέγοντος ὅτι δεῖ ἑκάστην τῶν τεχνῶν τὸν φιλοσοφοῦντα ἐπίστασθαι ἀκριβῶς ὥσπερ αὐτὸν τὸν τὴν τέχνην ἔχοντα, ἀλλʼ ὡς εἰκὸς ἄνδρα ἐλεύθερόν τε καὶ πεπαιδευμένον, ἐπακολουθῆσαί τε τοῖς λεγομένοις ὑπὸ τοῦ δημιουργοῦ οἷόν τʼ εἶναι διαφερόντως τῶν παρόντων, καὶ αὐτὸν ξυμβάλλεσθαι γνώμην, ὥστε δοκεῖν χαριέστατον εἶναι καὶ σοφώτατον τῶν ἀεὶ παρόντων ἐν τοῖς λεγομένοις τε καὶ πραττομένοις περὶ τὰς τέχνας. κἀγώ, ἔτι γὰρ αὐτοῦ ἠμφεγνόουν τὸν λόγον ὅτι ἐβούλετο, ἆρʼ ἐννοῶ, ἔφην, οἷον λέγεις τὸν φιλόσοφον ἄνδρα;
And I asked him whether it was not impossible for the same man to learn even two arts in this way, let alone many and great ones; and he said: "Do not misunderstand me in this way, Socrates, as saying that the one who practices philosophy must understand each of the arts precisely as the master of the art himself does, but as is fitting for a free and educated man, to be able to follow what is said by the craftsman outstandingly compared to those present, and to contribute an opinion himself, so that he seems to be the most accomplished and wisest of those present at any time in what is said and done concerning the arts." And I, for I was still doubtful of his argument as to what he meant, said: "Do I understand, then, what sort of man you mean the philosopher to be?
δοκεῖς γάρ μοι λέγειν οἷοι ἐν τῇ ἀγωνίᾳ εἰσὶν οἱ πένταθλοι πρὸς τοὺς δρομέας ἢ τοὺς παλαιστάς.
For you seem to me to be describing him as the pentathletes are in athletic contests in comparison with the runners or the wrestlers.
καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖνοι τούτων μὲν λείπονται κατὰ τὰ τούτων ἆθλα καὶ δεύτεροί εἰσι πρὸς τούτους, τῶν δʼ ἄλλων ἀθλητῶν πρῶτοι καὶ νικῶσιν αὐτούς.
For indeed those men fall short of these in their own contests and are second to them, but are first among the other athletes and defeat them."