Plato · Alcibiades I §127

Agreement in Spousal Roles and Alcibiades' Aporia

Passage 16 of 21 · Greek

Summary

Socrates points out the contradiction arising from the division of labor between men and women and the lack of "agreement." Realizing his ignorance about the relationship between justice, friendship, and the state, Alcibiades is encouraged by Socrates to continue their dialogue.

§127ΣΩ. τί δέ;

SOCRATES: What then?

γυνὴ ἀνδρὶ περὶ ὁπλιτικῆς δύναιτʼ ἂν ὁμονοεῖν μὴ μαθοῦσα;

Could a wife agree with her husband about military matters, without having learned them?

ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα.

ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.

ΣΩ. ἀνδρεῖον γὰρ τοῦτό γε ἴσως αὖ φαίης ἂν εἶναι.

SOCRATES: For you would perhaps say that this, too, is a man's study.

ΑΛ. ἔγωγε.

ALCIBIADES: Yes.

ΣΩ. ἔστιν ἄρα τὰ μὲν γυναικεῖα, τὰ δὲ ἀνδρεῖα μαθήματα κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον.

SOCRATES: Then, according to your argument, there are some studies for women, and others for men.

ΑΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;

ALCIBIADES: How not?

ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρα ἔν γε τούτοις ἐστὶν ὁμόνοια γυναιξὶ πρὸς ἄνδρας.

SOCRATES: Therefore, at least in these, there is no agreement of wives with husbands.

ΑΛ. οὔ.

ALCIBIADES: No.

ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα φιλία, εἴπερ ἡ φιλία ὁμόνοια ἦν.

SOCRATES: Nor indeed is there friendship, if friendship was indeed agreement.

ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεται.

ALCIBIADES: So it seems.

ΣΩ. ἧι ἄρα αἱ γυναῖκες τὰ αὑτῶν πράττουσιν, οὐ φιλοῦνται ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν.

SOCRATES: Therefore, insofar as women do their own business, they are not loved by their husbands.

ΑΛ. οὐκ ἔοικεν.

ALCIBIADES: It does not seem so.

ΣΩ. οὐδʼ ἄρα οἱ ἄνδρες ὑπὸ τῶν γυναικῶν ᾗ τὰ αὑτῶν.

SOCRATES: Nor indeed are husbands loved by their wives insofar as they do their own.

ΑΛ. οὔ.

ALCIBIADES: No.

ΣΩ. οὐδʼ εὖ ἄρα ταύτῃ οἰκοῦνται αἱ πόλεις, ὅταν τὰ αὑτῶν ἕκαστοι πράττωσιν;

SOCRATES: Therefore, are cities not well administered in this way, when each does his own business?

ΑΛ. οἶμαι ἔγωγε, ὦ Σώκρατες.

ALCIBIADES: I think they are, Socrates.

ΣΩ. πῶς λέγεις, φιλίας μὴ παρούσης, ἧς ἔφαμεν ἐγγιγνομένης εὖ οἰκεῖσθαι τὰς πόλεις, ἄλλως δʼ οὔ;

SOCRATES: What do you mean? When friendship is not present, which we said, when it is engendered, makes cities well administered, and otherwise not?

ΑΛ. ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖ καὶ κατὰ τοῦτʼ αὐτοῖς φιλία ἐγγίγνεσθαι, ὅτι τὰ αὑτῶν ἑκάτεροι πράττουσιν.

ALCIBIADES: But it seems to me that friendship is engendered among them also in this way, in that each of the two do their own business.

ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρτι γε·

SOCRATES: Not just now, at least.

νῦν δὲ πῶς αὖ λέγεις;

But how do you say it now?

ὁμονοίας μὴ ἐγγιγνομένης φιλία ἐγγίγνεται;

Is friendship engendered when agreement is not engendered?

ἢ οἷόν θʼ ὁμόνοιαν ἐγγίγνεσθαι ὧν οἱ μὲν ἴσασι περὶ τούτων, οἱ δʼ οὔ;

Or is it possible for agreement to be engendered about things which some know and others do not?

ΑΛ. ἀδύνατον.

ALCIBIADES: Impossible.

ΣΩ. δίκαια δὲ πράττουσιν ἢ ἄδικα, ὅταν τὰ αὑτῶν ἕκαστοι πράττωσιν;

SOCRATES: And do they do what is just or what is unjust, when each does his own business?

ΑΛ. δίκαια· πῶς γὰρ οὔ;

ALCIBIADES: What is just; for how not?

ΣΩ. τὰ δίκαια οὖν πραττόντων ἐν τῇ πόλει τῶν πολιτῶν φιλία οὐκ ἐγγίγνεται πρὸς ἀλλήλους;

SOCRATES: Therefore, when citizens do what is just in the city, is friendship not engendered toward one another?

ΑΛ. ἀνάγκη αὖ μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι, ὦ Σώκρατες.

ALCIBIADES: Again it seems to me to be necessary, Socrates.

ΣΩ. τίνα οὖν ποτε λέγεις τὴν φιλίαν ἢ ὁμόνοιαν περὶ ἧς δεῖ ἡμᾶς σοφούς τε εἶναι καὶ εὐβούλους, ἵνα ἀγαθοὶ ἄνδρες ὦμεν;

SOCRATES: What then in the world do you say is that friendship or agreement about which we must be wise and of good counsel, in order to be good men?

οὐ γὰρ δύναμαι μαθεῖν οὔθʼ ἥτις οὔτʼ ἐν οἷστισιν· τοτὲ μὲν γὰρ ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς φαίνεται ἐνοῦσα, τοτὲ δʼ οὔ, ὡς ἐκ τοῦ σοῦ λόγου.

For I am unable to understand either what it is or among whom; for at one time it seems to be present in the same things, and at another time not, according to your argument.

ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ μὰ τοὺς θεούς, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐδʼ αὐτὸς οἶδʼ ὅτι λέγω, κινδυνεύω δὲ καὶ πάλαι λεληθέναι ἐμαυτὸν αἴσχιστα ἔχων.

ALCIBIADES: But by the gods, Socrates, I do not even know myself what I am saying, and I am in danger of having been for a long time in a most shameful state without realizing it.

ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ χρὴ θαρρεῖν.

SOCRATES: But you must take heart.

εἰ μὲν γὰρ αὐτὸ ᾔσθου πεπονθὼς πεντηκονταετής, χαλεπὸν ἂν ἦν σοι ἐπιμεληθῆναι σαυτοῦ· νῦν δʼ ἣν ἔχεις ἡλικίαν, αὕτη ἐστὶν ἐν ᾗ δεῖ αὐτὸ αἰσθέσθαι.

For if you had realized this at fifty years of age, it would be difficult for you to care for yourself; but now, the age you have is the very one in which one must realize it.

ΑΛ. τί οὖν τὸν αἰσθανόμενον χρὴ ποιεῖν, ὦ Σώκρατες;

ALCIBIADES: What then must the one who realizes it do, Socrates?

ΣΩ. ἀποκρίνεσθαι τὰ ἐρωτώμενα, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη· καὶ ἐὰν τοῦτο ποιῇς, ἂν θεὸς θέλῃ, εἴ τι δεῖ καὶ τῇ ἐμῇ μαντείᾳ πιστεύειν, σύ τε κἀγὼ βέλτιον σχήσομεν.

SOCRATES: Answer the questions, Alcibiades; and if you do this, if god wills—if indeed any trust is to be placed in my prophecy—both you and I will be in a better state.

ΑΛ. ἔσται ταῦτα ἕνεκά γε τοῦ ἐμὲ ἀποκρίνεσθαι.

ALCIBIADES: This shall be so, as far as my answering is concerned.

Notes

127aἧι ἄρα αἱ γυναῖκες τὰ αὑτῶν πράττουσιν, οὐ φιλοῦνται ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν. — The adverbial conjunction ᾗ (originally the feminine dative of the relative pronoun ὅς) here expresses range or condition, meaning "insofar as" or "in what respect." It explains the context where, insofar as wives perform their own tasks (τὰ αὑτῶν) in their exclusive domain, no agreement (ὁμόνοια) and thus no friendship (φιλία) can arise with their husbands who lack that knowledge.
127bφιλίας μὴ παρούσης, ἧς ἔφαμεν ἐγγιγνομένης εὖ οἰκεῖσθαι τὰς πόλεις — This passage contains nested double genitive absolute constructions. The outer `φιλίας μὴ παρούσης` ("when friendship is not present") acts as a condition or concession to Socrates' counterargument. Within the relative clause introduced by `ἧς` (referring to φιλία), `ἐγγιγνομένης` is another genitive absolute ("when it is engendered"), modifying the infinitive `εὖ οἰκεῖσθαι` of the main clause.
127dκινδυνεύω δὲ καὶ πάλαι λεληθέναι ἐμαυτὸν αἴσχιστα ἔχων. — Two major idiomatic expressions are combined here: (1) `κινδυνεύω` + infinitive ("to be in danger of doing, to seem likely to do"), and (2) `λανθάνω` (here the perfect infinitive `λεληθέναι`) + accusative reflex pronoun (`emauton`) + supplementary participle (`echon`) ("to do something without realizing it oneself"). Their combination expresses a deep self-doubt: "I am in danger of having been for a long time in a most shameful state without realizing it."
127eἔσται ταῦτα ἕνεκά γε τοῦ ἐμὲ ἀποκρίνεσθαι. — `estai tauta` is an idiomatic reply meaning "this shall be so" or "it will be done." It is followed by the preposition `heneka` ("as far as ... is concerned" or "for the sake of"), which governs the genitive of the articular infinitive `tou ... apokrinesthai`. The accusative `eme` serves as the subject of the infinitive, literally meaning "as far as my answering is concerned."

Cite this passage

Plato, Alcibiades I §127. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg013.humanitext-grc2:127

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