§112ΣΩ. τί δὲ δή;
SOCRATES: And what of this?
νῦν περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ἀνθρώπων καὶ πραγμάτων οἱ πολλοὶ δοκοῦσί σοι ὁμολογεῖν αὐτοὶ ἑαυτοῖς ἢ ἀλλήλοις;
Now, regarding just and unjust men and matters, do the many seem to you to agree with themselves individually or with one another?
ΑΛ. ἥκιστα νὴ Δίʼ, ὦ Σώκρατες.
ALCIBIADES: Least of all, by Zeus, Socrates.
ΣΩ. τί δέ;
SOCRATES: And what?
μάλιστα περὶ αὐτῶν διαφέρεσθαι;
Do they seem to you to differ about them most of all?
ΑΛ. πολύ γε.
ALCIBIADES: Very much so.
ΣΩ. οὔκουν οἴομαί γε πώποτέ σε ἰδεῖν οὐδʼ ἀκοῦσαι σφόδρα οὕτω διαφερομένους ἀνθρώπους περὶ ὑγιεινῶν καὶ μή, ὥστε διὰ ταῦτα μάχεσθαί τε καὶ ἀποκτεινύναι ἀλλήλους.
SOCRATES: At any rate, I do not think you have ever seen or heard of people differing so vehemently about what is healthy and what is not, as to fight and kill one another on account of these things.
ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα.
ALCIBIADES: Certainly not.
ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ἔγωγʼ οἶδʼ ὅτι, καὶ εἰ μὴ ἑώρακας, ἀκήκοας γοῦν ἄλλων τε πολλῶν καὶ Ὁμήρου·
SOCRATES: But regarding the just and unjust, I at least know that, even if you have not seen it, you have at least heard of it from many others and from Homer; for you have heard of both the Odyssey and the Iliad.
καὶ Ὀδυσσείας γὰρ καὶ Ἰλιάδος ἀκήκοας. ΑΛ. πάντως δήπου, ὦ Σώκρατες.
ALCIBIADES: Certainly, indeed, Socrates.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ταῦτα ποιήματά ἐστι περὶ διαφορᾶς δικαίων τε καὶ ἀδίκων;
SOCRATES: Are these, then, not poems about the difference of just and unjust things?
ΑΛ. ναί.
ALCIBIADES: Yes.
ΣΩ. καὶ αἱ μάχαι γε καὶ οἱ θάνατοι διὰ ταύτην τὴν διαφορὰν τοῖς τε Ἀχαιοῖς καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις Τρωσὶν ἐγένοντο, καὶ τοῖς μνηστῆρσι τοῖς τῆς Πηνελόπης καὶ τῷ Ὀδυσσεῖ.
SOCRATES: And indeed the battles and the deaths occurred on account of this difference for both the Achaians and the others, the Trojans, and for the suitors of Penelope and Odysseus.
ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
ALCIBIADES: You speak the truth.
ΣΩ. οἶμαι δὲ καὶ τοῖς ἐν Τανάγρᾳ Ἀθηναίων τε καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων καὶ Βοιωτῶν ἀποθανοῦσι, καὶ τοῖς ὕστερον ἐν Κορωνείᾳ, ἐν οἷς καὶ ὁ σὸς πατὴρ ἐτελεύτησεν, οὐδὲ περὶ ἑνὸς ἄλλου ἡ διαφορὰ ἢ περὶ τοῦ δικαίου καὶ ἀδίκου τοὺς θανάτους καὶ τὰς μάχας πεποίηκεν· ἦ γάρ;
SOCRATES: And I think also for those of the Athenians, Lacedaemonians, and Boeotians who died at Tanagra, and later for those at Coroneia—among whom your father also died—the dispute about nothing other than the just and unjust caused their deaths and battles; did it not?
ΑΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
ALCIBIADES: You speak the truth.
ΣΩ. τούτους οὖν φῶμεν ἐπίστασθαι περὶ ὧν οὕτως σφόδρα διαφέρονται, ὥστε ἀμφισβητοῦντες ἀλλήλοις τὰ ἔσχατα σφᾶς αὐτοὺς ἐργάζονται;
SOCRATES: Should we then say that these people know those things about which they differ so vehemently that, disputing with one another, they inflict the extreme consequences upon themselves?
ΑΛ. οὐ φαίνεταί γε.
ALCIBIADES: It certainly does not appear so.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰς τοὺς τοιούτους διδασκάλους ἀναφέρεις οὓς ὁμολογεῖς αὐτὸς μὴ εἰδέναι;
SOCRATES: Are you not, then, referring to such teachers, whom you yourself agree do not know?
ΑΛ. ἔοικα.
ALCIBIADES: I seem to be.
ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν εἰκός σε εἰδέναι τὰ δίκαια καὶ τὰ ἄδικα, περὶ ὧν οὕτω πλανᾷ καὶ οὔτε μαθὼν φαίνῃ παρʼ οὐδενὸς οὔτʼ αὐτὸς ἐξευρών;
SOCRATES: How then is it likely that you know what is just and what is unjust, about which you wander so much and appear neither to have learned from anyone nor to have found out yourself?
ΑΛ. ἐκ μὲν ὧν σὺ λέγεις οὐκ εἰκός.
ALCIBIADES: From what you say, it is not likely.
ΣΩ. ὁρᾷς αὖ τοῦθʼ ὡς οὐ καλῶς εἶπες, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη;
SOCRATES: Do you see again how you did not speak well, Alcibiades?
ΑΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
ALCIBIADES: Which part?
ΣΩ. ὅτι ἐμὲ φῂς ταῦτα λέγειν.
SOCRATES: That you say I am saying these things.
ΑΛ. τί δέ;
ALCIBIADES: What?
οὐ σὺ λέγεις ὡς ἐγὼ οὐδὲν ἐπίσταμαι περὶ τῶν δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων;
Do you not say that I know nothing about the just and unjust?
ΣΩ. οὐ μέντοι.
SOCRATES: Certainly not indeed.
ΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἐγώ;
ALCIBIADES: But I am?
ΣΩ. ναί.
SOCRATES: Yes.
ΑΛ. πῶς δή;
ALCIBIADES: How so, indeed?
ΣΩ. ὧδε εἴσῃ. ἐάν σε ἔρωμαι τὸ ἓν καὶ τὰ δύο πότερα πλείω ἐστί, φήσεις ὅτι τὰ δύο;
SOCRATES: You will know in this way: if I ask you whether one or two is more, will you say that two is?
ΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
ALCIBIADES: I would.
ΣΩ. πόσῳ;
SOCRATES: By how much?
ΑΛ. ἑνί.
ALCIBIADES: By one.
ΣΩ. πότερος οὖν ἡμῶν ὁ λέγων ὅτι τὰ δύο τοῦ ἑνὸς ἑνὶ πλείω;
SOCRATES: Which of us, then, is the one saying that two is more than one by one?
ΑΛ. ἐγώ.
ALCIBIADES: I am.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐγὼ μὲν ἠρώτων, σὺ δʼ ἀπεκρίνου;
SOCRATES: And so I was asking, and you were answering?
ΑΛ. ναί.
ALCIBIADES: Yes.
§113ΣΩ. περὶ δὴ τούτων μῶν ἐγὼ φαίνομαι λέγων ὁ ἐρωτῶν, ἢ σὺ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος;
SOCRATES: Concerning these things, then, do I appear to be the one saying them, I who ask, or you who answer?
ΑΛ. ἐγώ.
ALCIBIADES: I do.
ΣΩ. τί δʼ ἂν ἐγὼ μὲν ἔρωμαι ποῖα γράμματα Σωκράτους, σὺ δʼ εἴπῃς, πότερος ὁ λέγων;
SOCRATES: And what if I ask what letters make up 'Socrates', and you tell me, which of us is the one saying them?
ΑΛ. ἐγώ.
ALCIBIADES: I am.
ΣΩ. ἴθι δή, ἑνὶ λόγῳ εἰπέ· ὅταν ἐρώτησίς τε καὶ ἀπόκρισις γίγνηται, πότερος ὁ λέγων, ὁ ἐρωτῶν ἢ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος;
SOCRATES: Come then, tell me in a single word: when questioning and answering take place, which is the one saying, the one asking or the one answering?
ΑΛ. ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες.
ALCIBIADES: The one answering, it seems to me, Socrates.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἄρτι διὰ παντὸς ἐγὼ μὲν ἦ ὁ ἐρωτῶν;
SOCRATES: And so just now, throughout it all, was I not the one asking?
ΑΛ. ναί.
ALCIBIADES: Yes.
ΣΩ. σὺ δʼ ὁ ἀποκρινόμενος;
SOCRATES: And you the one answering?
ΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
ALCIBIADES: Quite so.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOCRATES: What then?
τὰ λεχθέντα πότερος ἡμῶν εἴρηκεν;
Which of us has spoken the things that were said?
ΑΛ. φαίνομαι μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων ἐγώ.
ALCIBIADES: From what has been agreed, Socrates, it appears to be I.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἐλέχθη περὶ δικαίων καὶ ἀδίκων ὅτι Ἀλκιβιάδης ὁ καλὸς ὁ Κλεινίου οὐκ ἐπίσταιτο, οἴοιτο δέ, καὶ μέλλοι εἰς ἐκκλησίαν ἐλθὼν συμβουλεύσειν Ἀθηναίοις περὶ ὧν οὐδὲν οἶδεν; οὐ ταῦτʼ ἦν;
SOCRATES: Was it not said, then, concerning the just and unjust, that Alcibiades, the beautiful son of Cleinias, did not know them, but thought he did, and was about to go to the assembly to advise the Athenians about things of which he knows nothing?
ΑΛ. φαίνεται.
Was that not it?
ΣΩ. τὸ τοῦ Εὐριπίδου ἄρα συμβαίνει, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη·
ALCIBIADES: So it appears.
σοῦ τάδε κινδυνεύεις, οὐκ ἐμοῦ ἀκηκοέναι, οὐδʼ ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ταῦτα λέγων, ἀλλὰ σύ, ἐμὲ δὲ αἰτιᾷ μάτην.
SOCRATES: The saying of Euripides, then, turns out to be applicable, Alcibiades: you risk having heard these things from yourself, not from me, and it is not I who am saying these things, but you, and you blame me in vain.
καὶ μέντοι καὶ εὖ λέγεις.
And indeed you also speak well.
μανικὸν γὰρ ἐν νῷ ἔχεις ἐπιχείρημα ἐπιχειρεῖν, ὦ βέλτιστε, διδάσκειν ἃ οὐκ οἶσθα, ἀμελήσας μανθάνειν.
For you have in mind to attempt a mad undertaking, my excellent friend, to teach what you do not know, having neglected to learn.
ΑΛ. οἶμαι μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὀλιγάκις Ἀθηναίους βουλεύεσθαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους Ἕλληνας πότερα δικαιότερα ἢ ἀδικώτερα· τὰ μὲν γὰρ τοιαῦτα ἡγοῦνται δῆλα εἶναι, ἐάσαντες οὖν περὶ αὐτῶν σκοποῦσιν ὁπότερα συνοίσει πράξασιν.
ALCIBIADES: I think, Socrates, that the Athenians and the other Greeks rarely deliberate about whether things are more just or more unjust; for they believe that such things are obvious, and so, leaving them aside, they consider which of the courses of action will be advantageous.
οὐ γὰρ ταὐτὰ οἶμαι ἐστὶν τά τε δίκαια καὶ τὰ συμφέροντα, ἀλλὰ πολλοῖς δὴ ἐλυσιτέλησεν ἀδικήσασι μεγάλα ἀδικήματα, καὶ ἑτέροις γε οἶμαι δίκαια ἐργασαμένοις οὐ συνήνεγκεν.
For I think the just and the advantageous are not the same, but indeed it has profited many to have committed great injustices, and for others, I think, who performed just deeds, it did not turn out to be advantageous.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOCRATES: What then?
εἰ ὅτι μάλιστα ἕτερα μὲν τὰ δίκαια τυγχάνει ὄντα, ἕτερα δὲ τὰ συμφέροντα, οὔ τί που αὖ σὺ οἴει ταῦτʼ εἰδέναι ἃ συμφέρει τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, καὶ διʼ ὅτι;
If indeed the just things happen to be one thing, and the advantageous another, you do not, I suppose, think in turn that you know these things—namely, what is advantageous to men, and why?
ΑΛ. τί γὰρ κωλύει, ὦ Σώκρατες;
ALCIBIADES: For what is to prevent it, Socrates?
εἰ μή με αὖ ἐρήσῃ παρʼ ὅτου ἔμαθον ἢ ὅπως αὐτὸς ηὗρον.
Unless you are going to ask me in turn from whom I learned it, or how I found it out myself.