§268ΣΩ. ἐῶμεν δὴ τά γε σμικρά· ταῦτα δὲ ὑπʼ αὐγὰς μᾶλλον ἴδωμεν, τίνα καὶ πότʼ ἔχει τὴν τῆς τέχνης δύναμιν.
SOCRATES: Let us then leave aside the small things; and let us look at these rather under the light, to see what kind of power of the art they have and how much.
ΦΑΙ. καὶ μάλα ἐρρωμένην, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔν γε δὴ πλήθους συνόδοις.
PHAEDRUS: A very robust one indeed, Socrates, at least in the assemblies of the crowd.
ΣΩ. ἔχει γάρ.
SOCRATES: Indeed it does.
ἀλλʼ, ὦ δαιμόνιε, ἰδὲ καὶ σὺ εἰ ἄρα καὶ σοὶ φαίνεται διεστηκὸς αὐτῶν τὸ ἤτριον ὥσπερ ἐμοί.
But, my dear friend, look and see if their warp appears to you also, as it does to me, to be loose-meshed.
ΦΑΙ. δείκνυε μόνον.
PHAEDRUS: Just point it out.
ΣΩ. εἰπὲ δή μοι· εἴ τις προσελθὼν τῷ ἑταίρῳ σου Ἐρυξιμάχῳ ἢ τῷ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ Ἀκουμενῷ εἴποι ὅτι
ἐγὼ ἐπίσταμαι τοιαῦτʼ ἄττα σώμασι προσφέρειν, ὥστε θερμαίνειν τʼ ἐὰν βούλωμαι καὶ ψύχειν, καὶ ἐὰν μὲν δόξῃ μοι, ἐμεῖν ποιεῖν, ἐὰν δʼ αὖ, κάτω διαχωρεῖν, καὶ ἄλλα πάμπολλα τοιαῦτα· καὶ ἐπιστάμενος αὐτὰ ἀξιῶ ἰατρικὸς εἶναι καὶ ἄλλον ποιεῖν ᾧ ἂν τὴν τούτων ἐπιστήμην παραδῶ,
τί ἂν οἴει ἀκούσαντας εἰπεῖν;
SOCRATES: Tell me then: if someone were to go to your companion Eryximachus or to his father Acumenus and say: "I know how to apply such treatments to bodies so as to warm them, if I wish, and to cool them, and if it seems good to me, to make them vomit, or again, to purge them downwards, and many other such things; and knowing these things, I claim to be a physician and to make anyone else a physician to whom I hand over the knowledge of these things," what do you think they would say upon hearing this?
ΦΑΙ. τί δʼ ἄλλο γε ἢ ἐρέσθαι εἰ προσεπίσταται καὶ οὕστινας δεῖ καὶ ὁπότε ἕκαστα τούτων ποιεῖν, καὶ μέχρι ὁπόσου;
PHAEDRUS: What else indeed but ask whether he also knows besides, to whom and when each of these things must be done, and to what extent?
ΣΩ. εἰ οὖν εἴποι ὅτι
οὐδαμῶς· ἀλλʼ ἀξιῶ τὸν ταῦτα παρʼ ἐμοῦ μαθόντα αὐτὸν οἷόν τʼ εἶναι ἃ ἐρωτᾷς;
SOCRATES: If then he should say: "Not at all; but I claim that the one who has learned these things from me should be able to do what you ask by himself"?
ΦΑΙ. εἰπεῖν ἂν οἶμαι ὅτι μαίνεται ἅνθρωπος, καὶ ἐκ βιβλίου ποθὲν ἀκούσας ἢ περιτυχὼν φαρμακίοις ἰατρὸς οἴεται γεγονέναι, οὐδὲν ἐπαΐων τῆς τέχνης.
PHAEDRUS: I think they would say that the fellow is mad, and that having heard something from some book or having happened upon some drugs, he thinks he has become a physician, while understanding nothing of the art.
ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ Σοφοκλεῖ αὖ προσελθὼν καὶ Εὐριπίδῃ τις λέγοι ὡς ἐπίσταται περὶ σμικροῦ πράγματος ῥήσεις παμμήκεις ποιεῖν καὶ περὶ μεγάλου πάνυ σμικράς, ὅταν τε βούληται οἰκτράς, καὶ τοὐναντίον αὖ φοβερὰς καὶ ἀπειλητικὰς ὅσα τʼ ἄλλα τοιαῦτα, καὶ διδάσκων αὐτὰ τραγῳδίας ποίησιν οἴεται παραδιδόναι;
SOCRATES: And what if someone, going in turn to Sophocles and Euripides, should say that he knows how to make very long speeches about a small matter and very small ones about a great matter, and pitious ones whenever he wishes, and conversely fearful and threatening ones, and all other such things, and by teaching these thinks he is handing down the composition of tragedy?
ΦΑΙ. καὶ οὗτοι ἄν, ὦ Σώκρατες, οἶμαι καταγελῷεν εἴ τις οἴεται τραγῳδίαν ἄλλο τι εἶναι ἢ τὴν τούτων σύστασιν πρέπουσαν ἀλλήλοις τε καὶ τῷ ὅλῳ συνισταμένην.
PHAEDRUS: They too, I think, Socrates, would laugh if someone thinks tragedy is anything other than the combination of these elements, composed in a manner fitting to one another and to the whole.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἂν ἀγροίκως γε οἶμαι λοιδορήσειαν, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ἂν μουσικὸς ἐντυχὼν ἀνδρὶ οἰομένῳ ἁρμονικῷ εἶναι, ὅτι δὴ τυγχάνει ἐπιστάμενος ὡς οἷόν τε ὀξυτάτην καὶ βαρυτάτην χορδὴν ποιεῖν, οὐκ ἀγρίως εἴποι ἄν· ὦ μοχθηρέ, μελαγχολᾷς,
ἀλλʼ ἅτε μουσικὸς ὢν πρᾳότερον ὅτι
ὦ ἄριστε, ἀνάγκη μὲν καὶ ταῦτʼ ἐπίστασθαι τὸν μέλλοντα ἁρμονικὸν ἔσεσθαι, οὐδὲν μὴν κωλύει μηδὲ σμικρὸν ἁρμονίας ἐπαΐειν τὸν τὴν σὴν ἕξιν ἔχοντα· τὰ γὰρ πρὸ ἁρμονίας ἀναγκαῖα μαθήματα ἐπίστασαι ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ ἁρμονικά. ΦΑΙ. ὀρθότατά γε.
SOCRATES: But they would not, I think, abuse him rudely, but just as a musician, meeting a man who thinks he is a master of harmony because he happens to know how to make a string sound at its highest and lowest pitch, would not say harshly: "You miserable wretch, you are mad!" but, being a musician, would say more gently: "My excellent friend, it is indeed necessary for one who is going to be a master of harmony to know these things too, but nothing prevents one who has your disposition from understanding not even a little of harmony; for you know the necessary preliminary learnings before harmony, but not the principles of harmony itself." PHAEDRUS: Most correctly indeed.
§269ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὁ Σοφοκλῆς τόν σφισιν ἐπιδεικνύμενον τὰ πρὸ τραγῳδίας ἂν φαίη ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ τραγικά, καὶ ὁ Ἀκουμενὸς τὰ πρὸ ἰατρικῆς ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ ἰατρικά.
SOCRATES: Therefore Sophocles too would say that the one who exhibits these things to them knows the things prior to tragedy, but not the art of tragedy, and Acumenus would say the same of the things prior to medicine, but not medicine itself.
ΦΑΙ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
PHAEDRUS: Most certainly so.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ τὸν μελίγηρυν Ἄδραστον οἰόμεθα ἢ καὶ Περικλέα, εἰ ἀκούσειαν ὧν νυνδὴ ἡμεῖς διῇμεν τῶν παγκάλων τεχνημάτων—βραχυλογιῶν τε καὶ εἰκονολογιῶν καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα διελθόντες ὑπʼ αὐγὰς ἔφαμεν εἶναι σκεπτέα—πότερον χαλεπῶς ἂν αὐτούς, ὥσπερ ἐγώ τε καὶ σύ, ὑπʼ ἀγροικίας ῥῆμά τι εἰπεῖν ἀπαίδευτον εἰς τοὺς ταῦτα γεγραφότας τε καὶ διδάσκοντας ὡς ῥητορικὴν τέχνην, ἢ ἅτε ἡμῶν ὄντας σοφωτέρους κἂν νῷν ἐπιπλῆξαι εἰπόντας·
SOCRATES: But what do you think the sweet-voiced Adrastus, or even Pericles, would do if they heard of the very beautiful 'arts' we just now went through—conciseness of speech and imagery, and all the other things we passed over, saying they must be examined under the light?
ὦ Φαῖδρέ τε καὶ Σώκρατες, οὐ χρὴ χαλεπαίνειν ἀλλὰ συγγιγνώσκειν, εἴ τινες μὴ ἐπιστάμενοι διαλέγεσθαι ἀδύνατοι ἐγένοντο ὁρίσασθαι τί ποτʼ ἔστιν ῥητορική, ἐκ δὲ τούτου τοῦ πάθους τὰ πρὸ τῆς τέχνης ἀναγκαῖα μαθήματα ἔχοντες ῥητορικὴν ᾠήθησαν ηὑρηκέναι, καὶ ταῦτα δὴ διδάσκοντες ἄλλους ἡγοῦνταί σφισιν τελέως ῥητορικὴν δεδιδάχθαι, τὸ δὲ ἕκαστα τούτων πιθανῶς λέγειν τε καὶ τὸ ὅλον συνίστασθαι, οὐδὲν ἔργον ὄν, αὐτοὺς δεῖν παρʼ ἑαυτῶν τοὺς μαθητὰς σφῶν πορίζεσθαι ἐν τοῖς λόγοις
.
Would they, because of rudeness, speak some uneducated word harshly, as you and I did, against those who have written and teach these things as the art of rhetoric, or, being wiser than we, would they even reprove us, saying: "Phaedrus and Socrates, you must not be angry but must forgive them, if some, being ignorant of dialectic, were unable to define what indeed rhetoric is, and as a result of this condition, having the necessary preliminary learnings before the art, they thought they had discovered rhetoric, and by teaching these indeed to others, they think that rhetoric has been perfectly taught by them; but as for speaking each of these persuasively and organizing the whole, as if it were no difficult task, they think their pupils must provide this for themselves from their own resources in their speeches"?
ΦΑΙ. ἀλλὰ μήν, ὦ Σώκρατες, κινδυνεύει γε τοιοῦτόν τι εἶναι τὸ τῆς τέχνης ἣν οὗτοι οἱ ἄνδρες ὡς ῥητορικὴν διδάσκουσίν τε καὶ γράφουσιν, καὶ ἔμοιγε δοκεῖς ἀληθῆ εἰρηκέναι·
PHAEDRUS: Indeed, Socrates, the nature of the art which these men teach and write about as rhetoric is likely to be something of this sort, and you seem to me to have spoken the truth.
ἀλλὰ δὴ τὴν τοῦ τῷ ὄντι ῥητορικοῦ τε καὶ πιθανοῦ τέχνην πῶς καὶ πόθεν ἄν τις δύναιτο πορίσασθαι;
But indeed, how and from where could one acquire the art of the truly rhetorical and persuasive speech?
ΣΩ. τὸ μὲν δύνασθαι, ὦ Φαῖδρε, ὥστε ἀγωνιστὴν τέλεον γενέσθαι, εἰκός—ἴσως δὲ καὶ ἀναγκαῖον—ἔχειν ὥσπερ τἆλλα·
SOCRATES: The capacity to become a perfect competitor, Phaedrus, is likely—and perhaps even necessary—to be just as in other things.
εἰ μέν σοι ὑπάρχει φύσει ῥητορικῷ εἶναι, ἔσῃ ῥήτωρ ἐλλόγιμος, προσλαβὼν ἐπιστήμην τε καὶ μελέτην, ὅτου δʼ ἂν ἐλλείπῃς τούτων, ταύτῃ ἀτελὴς ἔσῃ.
If you have it in your nature to be rhetorical, you will be a famous rhetorician, once you have acquired knowledge and practice; but in whatever of these you are deficient, in that respect you will be incomplete.
ὅσον δὲ αὐτοῦ τέχνη, οὐχ ᾗ Λυσίας τε καὶ Θρασύμαχος πορεύεται δοκεῖ μοι φαίνεσθαι ἡ μέθοδος.
But so far as it is an art, the method does not seem to me to appear along the path where Lysias and Thrasymachus travel.
ΦΑΙ. ἀλλὰ πῇ δή;
PHAEDRUS: But where then?
ΣΩ. κινδυνεύει, ὦ ἄριστε, εἰκότως ὁ Περικλῆς πάντων τελεώτατος εἰς τὴν ῥητορικὴν γενέσθαι.
SOCRATES: It is likely, my excellent friend, that Pericles, with good reason, became the most perfect of all in rhetoric.
ΦΑΙ. τί δή;
PHAEDRUS: Why so?