§62ΠΡΩ. ἐμοὶ γοῦν δοκεῖ δρᾶν οὕτως.
PROTARCHUS: To me at least, it seems best to do so.
ΣΩ. ἔστω δή τις ἡμῖν φρονῶν ἄνθρωπος αὐτῆς περὶ δικαιοσύνης ὅτι ἔστιν, καὶ λόγον ἔχων ἑπόμενον τῷ νοεῖν, καὶ δὴ καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων πάντων τῶν ὄντων ὡσαύτως διανοούμενος.
SOCRATES: Let us assume that there is for us some wise man who understands justice itself, what it is, and who has an account that follows his understanding, and who indeed thinks in the same way about all other things that are.
ΠΡΩ. ἔστω γὰρ οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, let us assume so.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὗτος ἱκανῶς ἐπιστήμης ἕξει, κύκλου μὲν καὶ σφαίρας αὐτῆς τῆς θείας τὸν λόγον ἔχων, τὴν δὲ ἀνθρωπίνην ταύτην σφαῖραν καὶ τοὺς κύκλους τούτους ἀγνοῶν, καὶ χρώμενος ἐν οἰκοδομίᾳ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ὁμοίως κανόσι καὶ τοῖς κύκλοις;
SOCRATES: Will this man, then, have sufficient knowledge, if he has the account of the divine circle and sphere itself, but is ignorant of this human sphere and these circles, and uses in building and in other things likewise imprecise rulers and circles?
ΠΡΩ. γελοίαν διάθεσιν ἡμῶν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐν ταῖς θείαις οὖσαν μόνον ἐπιστήμαις λέγομεν.
PROTARCHUS: We would be describing a ridiculous state of ourselves, Socrates, if it exists only in divine knowledges.
ΣΩ. πῶς φῄς;
SOCRATES: How do you mean?
ἦ τοῦ ψευδοῦς κανόνος ἅμα καὶ τοῦ κύκλου τὴν οὐ βέβαιον οὐδὲ καθαρὰν τέχνην ἐμβλητέον κοινῇ καὶ συγκρατέον;
Must we throw in and mix together also the insecure and impure art of the false ruler and circle?
ΠΡΩ. ἀναγκαῖον γάρ, εἰ μέλλει τις ἡμῶν καὶ τὴν ὁδὸν ἑκάστοτε ἐξευρήσειν οἴκαδε.
PROTARCHUS: For it is necessary, if any of us is ever to find even his way home.
ΣΩ. ἦ καὶ μουσικήν, ἣν ὀλίγον ἔμπροσθεν ἔφαμεν στοχάσεώς τε καὶ μιμήσεως μεστὴν οὖσαν καθαρότητος ἐνδεῖν;
SOCRATES: And also music, which we said a little earlier is full of guesswork and imitation, and lacks purity?
ΠΡΩ. ἀναγκαῖον φαίνεται ἔμοιγε, εἴπερ γε ἡμῶν ὁ βίος ἔσται καὶ ὁπωσοῦν ποτε βίος.
PROTARCHUS: It seems necessary to me at least, if indeed our life is to be a life at all in any way whatsoever.
ΣΩ. βούλει δῆτα, ὥσπερ θυρωρὸς ὑπʼ ὄχλου τις ὠθούμενος καὶ βιαζόμενος, ἡττηθεὶς ἀναπετάσας τὰς θύρας ἀφῶ πάσας τὰς ἐπιστήμας εἰσρεῖν καὶ μείγνυσθαι ὁμοῦ καθαρᾷ τὴν ἐνδεεστέραν;
SOCRATES: Do you wish then, like a doorkeeper who is pushed and forced by a crowd, that I, yielded, should throw open the doors and let all the knowledges flow in and mix together, the less perfect with the pure?
ΠΡΩ. οὔκουν ἔγωγε οἶδα, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι τις ἂν βλάπτοιτο πάσας λαβὼν τὰς ἄλλας ἐπιστήμας, ἔχων τὰς πρώτας.
PROTARCHUS: I, for my part, do not know, Socrates, how anyone would be harmed by taking all the other knowledges, if he already possesses the primary ones.
ΣΩ. μεθιῶ δὴ τὰς συμπάσας ῥεῖν εἰς τὴν τῆς Ὁμήρου καὶ μάλα ποιητικῆς μισγαγκείας ὑποδοχήν;
SOCRATES: Shall I, then, let them all flow into the receptacle of Homer's very poetic 'meeting of the waters'?
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: By all means, indeed.
ΣΩ. μεθεῖνται· καὶ πάλιν ἐπὶ τὴν τῶν ἡδονῶν πηγὴν ἰτέον.
SOCRATES: They are let in; and now we must go back to the spring of pleasures.
ὡς γὰρ διενοήθημεν αὐτὰς μειγνύναι, τὰ τῶν ἀληθῶν μόρια πρῶτον, οὐκ ἐξεγένεθʼ ἡμῖν, ἀλλὰ διὰ τὸ πᾶσαν ἀγαπᾶν ἐπιστήμην εἰς ταὐτὸν μεθεῖμεν ἁθρόας καὶ πρόσθεν τῶν ἡδονῶν.
For as we intended to mix them—the portions of the true ones first—it did not turn out that way for us; rather, because of our embracing all knowledge, we let them all in together even before the pleasures.
ΠΡΩ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
PROTARCHUS: You speak most truly.
ΣΩ. ὥρα δὴ βουλεύεσθαι νῷν καὶ περὶ τῶν ἡδονῶν, πότερα καὶ ταύτας πάσας ἁθρόας ἀφετέον ἢ καὶ τούτων πρώτας μεθετέον ἡμῖν ὅσαι ἀληθεῖς.
SOCRATES: It is time, then, for the two of us to deliberate also about the pleasures, whether we should let all of these also flow in together, or whether we should first let flow those of them that are true.
ΠΡΩ. πολύ τι διαφέρει πρός γε ἀσφάλειαν πρώτας τὰς ἀληθεῖς ἀφεῖναι.
PROTARCHUS: It makes a great difference indeed for safety to let the true ones flow in first.
ΣΩ. μεθείσθων δή.
SOCRATES: Let them be let in, then.
τί δὲ μετὰ ταῦτα;
And what after this?
ἆρʼ οὐκ εἰ μέν τινες ἀναγκαῖαι, καθάπερ ἐκεῖ, συμμεικτέον καὶ ταύτας;
Must we not, if there are some necessary ones, as in the former case, mix these in too?
ΠΡΩ. τί δʼ οὔ;
PROTARCHUS: Why not?
τάς γε ἀναγκαίας δήπουθεν.
The necessary ones, surely.
§63ΣΩ. εἰ δέ γε καί, καθάπερ τὰς τέχνας πάσας ἀβλαβές τε καὶ ὠφέλιμον ἦν ἐπίστασθαι διὰ βίου, καὶ νῦν δὴ ταὐτὰ λέγομεν περὶ τῶν ἡδονῶν, εἴπερ πάσας ἡδονὰς ἥδεσθαι διὰ βίου συμφέρον τε ἡμῖν ἐστι καὶ ἀβλαβὲς ἅπασι, πάσας συγκρατέον.
SOCRATES: And if indeed, just as it was harmless and beneficial to understand all the crafts throughout life, we now say the same about pleasures, if indeed it is advantageous and harmless for us all to enjoy all pleasures throughout life, we must mix them all.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς οὖν δὴ περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων λέγωμεν;
PROTARCHUS: How then should we say about these very things?
καὶ πῶς ποιῶμεν;
And how should we act?
ΣΩ. οὐχ ἡμᾶς, ὦ Πρώταρχε, διερωτᾶν χρή, τὰς ἡδονὰς δὲ αὐτὰς καὶ τὰς φρονήσεις διαπυνθανομένους τὸ τοιόνδε ἀλλήλων πέρι.
SOCRATES: It is not we ourselves, Protarchus, who must be questioned, but we must inquire of the pleasures themselves and of wisdoms, asking them about one another in some such way as this.
ΠΡΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
PROTARCHUS: In what way?
ΣΩ.
ὦ φίλαι, εἴτε ἡδονὰς ὑμᾶς χρὴ προσαγορεύειν εἴτε ἄλλῳ ὁτῳοῦν ὀνόματι, μῶν οὐκ ἂν δέξαισθε οἰκεῖν μετὰ φρονήσεως πάσης ἢ χωρὶς τοῦ φρονεῖν; οἶμαι μὲν πρὸς ταῦτα τόδʼ αὐτὰς ἀναγκαιότατον εἶναι λέγειν. ΠΡΩ. τὸ ποῖον;
SOCRATES: 'O friends, whether it is necessary to address you as pleasures or by any other name whatsoever, would you not accept to dwell with all wisdom rather than apart from understanding?' I think, in response to this, it is most necessary for them to say this: PROTARCHUS: What is that?
ΣΩ. ὅτι καθάπερ ἔμπροσθεν ἐρρήθη,
τὸ μόνον καὶ ἔρημον εἰλικρινὲς εἶναί τι γένος οὔτε πάνυ τι δυνατὸν οὔτʼ ὠφέλιμον· πάντων γε μὴν ἡγούμεθα γενῶν ἄριστον ἓν ἀνθʼ ἑνὸς συνοικεῖν ἡμῖν τὸ τοῦ γιγνώσκειν τἆλλά τε πάντα καὶ αὐτὴν ἡμῶν τελέως εἰς δύναμιν ἑκάστην. ΠΡΩ.
καὶ καλῶς γε εἰρήκατε τὰ νῦν,
φήσομεν.
SOCRATES: That, just as was said before, 'for any class to be alone and desolate in its purity is neither altogether possible nor beneficial; but of all classes, we believe that the best to dwell with us, on a one-to-one basis, is that of knowing all other things and, as far as possible, each of us knowing ourselves perfectly.' PROTARCHUS: 'And you have spoken well now,' we shall say.
ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς.
SOCRATES: Rightly.
πάλιν τοίνυν μετὰ τοῦτο τὴν φρόνησιν καὶ τὸν νοῦν ἀνερωτητέον· ἆρʼ ἡδονῶν τι προσδεῖσθε ἐν τῇ συγκράσει; φαῖμεν ἂν αὖ τὸν νοῦν τε καὶ τὴν φρόνησιν ἀνερωτῶντες.
Next, then, we must question wisdom and intellect: 'Do you have any need of pleasures in the mixture?' we would say, questioning intellect and wisdom in turn.
ποίων,
φαῖεν ἂν ἴσως,
ἡδονῶν; ΠΡΩ. εἰκός.
'What kind,' they would perhaps say, 'of pleasures?' PROTARCHUS: Likely so.
ΣΩ. ὁ δέ γʼ ἡμέτερος λόγος μετὰ τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ὅδε. πρὸς ταῖς ἀληθέσιν ἐκείναις ἡδοναῖς,
φήσομεν,
ἆρʼ ἔτι προσδεῖσθʼ ὑμῖν τὰς μεγίστας ἡδονὰς συνοίκους εἶναι καὶ τὰς σφοδροτάτας; καὶ πῶς, ὦ Σώκρατες,
ἴσως φαῖεν ἄν,
αἵ γʼ ἐμποδίσματά τε μυρία ἡμῖν ἔχουσι, τὰς ψυχὰς ἐν αἷς οἰκοῦμεν ταράττουσαι διὰ μανίας, καὶ γίγνεσθαί τε ἡμᾶς τὴν ἀρχὴν οὐκ ἐῶσι, τά τε γιγνόμενα ἡμῶν τέκνα ὡς τὸ πολύ, διʼ ἀμέλειαν λήθην ἐμποιοῦσαι, παντάπασι διαφθείρουσιν;
SOCRATES: And our argument after this is as follows: 'In addition to those true pleasures,' we shall say, 'do you still need the greatest and most intense pleasures to dwell with you?' 'And how, Socrates,' they would perhaps say, 'since they present countless obstacles to us, disturbing the souls in which we dwell with madness, and do not allow us to come into existence at all in the first place, and as for our offspring, they completely ruin them in most cases by producing forgetfulness through neglect?'