§55ΠΡΩ. ἐοίκασι γοῦν.
PROTARCHUS: They certainly seem to.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τῷ γίγνεσθαί γε τοὐναντίον ἅπαντες τὸ φθείρεσθαι φαῖμεν ἄν.
SOCRATES: Would we not all say, then, that perishing is the very opposite of becoming?
ΠΡΩ. ἀναγκαῖον.
PROTARCHUS: Necessarily.
ΣΩ. τὴν δὴ φθορὰν καὶ γένεσιν αἱροῖτʼ ἄν τις τοῦθʼ αἱρούμενος, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὸν τρίτον ἐκεῖνον βίον, τὸν ἐν ᾧ μήτε χαίρειν μήτε λυπεῖσθαι, φρονεῖν δʼ ἦν ὡς οἷόν τε καθαρώτατα.
SOCRATES: Then anyone choosing this would be choosing destruction and becoming, but not that third life, the one in which it was possible neither to rejoice nor to be pained, but to think as purely as possible.
ΠΡΩ. πολλή τις, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀλογία συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι, ἐάν τις τὴν ἡδονὴν ὡς ἀγαθὸν ἡμῖν τιθῆται.
PROTARCHUS: It seems, Socrates, that much absurdity results if one posits pleasure as the good for us.
ΣΩ. πολλή, ἐπεὶ καὶ τῇδε ἔτι λέγωμεν.
SOCRATES: Much indeed, since let us also state it further in this way.
ΠΡΩ. πῇ;
PROTARCHUS: In what way?
ΣΩ. πῶς οὐκ ἄλογόν ἐστι μηδὲν ἀγαθὸν εἶναι μηδὲ καλὸν μήτε ἐν σώμασι μήτʼ ἐν πολλοῖς ἄλλοις πλὴν ἐν ψυχῇ, καὶ ἐνταῦθα ἡδονὴν μόνον, ἀνδρείαν δὲ ἢ σωφροσύνην ἢ νοῦν ἤ τι τῶν ἄλλων ὅσα ἀγαθὰ εἴληχε ψυχή, μηδὲν τοιοῦτον εἶναι;
SOCRATES: How is it not absurd that there is nothing good or beautiful either in bodies or in many other things except in the soul, and even there, only pleasure, while courage, temperance, intellect, or any of the other things that the soul has received as its portion of goods, is nothing of the sort?
πρὸς τούτοις δὲ ἔτι τὸν μὴ χαίροντα, ἀλγοῦντα δέ, ἀναγκάζεσθαι φάναι κακὸν εἶναι τότε ὅταν ἀλγῇ, κἂν ᾖ ἄριστος πάντων, καὶ τὸν χαίροντα αὖ, ὅσῳ μᾶλλον χαίρει, τότε ὅταν χαίρῃ, τοσούτῳ διαφέρειν πρὸς ἀρετήν.
And in addition to this, that one who does not rejoice, but is pained, is forced to say that he is bad at that time when he is pained, even if he be the best of all, and conversely, that the one who rejoices, the more he rejoices, at that time when he rejoices, by so much does he excel in virtue.
ΠΡΩ. πάντʼ ἐστὶ ταῦτα, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὡς δυνατὸν ἀλογώτατα.
PROTARCHUS: All these things, Socrates, are as absurd as possible.
ΣΩ. μὴ τοίνυν ἡδονῆς μὲν πάντως ἐξέτασιν πᾶσαν ἐπιχειρῶμεν ποιήσασθαι, νοῦ δὲ καὶ ἐπιστήμης οἷον φειδόμενοι σφόδρα φανῶμεν· γενναίως δέ, εἴ πῄ τι σαθρὸν ἔχει, πᾶν περικρούωμεν, ὡς ὅτι καθαρώτατόν ἐστʼ αὐτῶν φύσει, τοῦτο κατιδόντες εἰς τὴν κρίσιν χρώμεθα τὴν κοινὴν τοῖς τε τούτων καὶ τοῖς τῆς ἡδονῆς μέρεσιν ἀληθεστάτοις.
SOCRATES: Let us not, then, attempt to make every sort of examination of pleasure, while appearing to spare intellect and knowledge exceedingly; but let us courageously strike at them all around, to see if they have any rotten part, so that, having perceived what is by nature most pure of them, we may use this for the joint judgment with both these parts and the truest parts of pleasure.
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθῶς.
PROTARCHUS: Correct.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἡμῖν τὸ μὲν οἶμαι δημιουργικόν ἐστι τῆς περὶ τὰ μαθήματα ἐπιστήμης, τὸ δὲ περὶ παιδείαν καὶ τροφήν.
SOCRATES: Well then, one part of the knowledge concerning branches of study is, I think, productive, and the other is concerning education and cultivation.
ἢ πῶς;
Or how?
ΠΡΩ. οὕτως.
PROTARCHUS: Thus it is.
ΣΩ. ἐν δὴ ταῖς χειροτεχνικαῖς διανοηθῶμεν πρῶτα εἰ τὸ μὲν ἐπιστήμης αὐτῶν μᾶλλον ἐχόμενον, τὸ δʼ ἧττον ἔνι, καὶ δεῖ τὰ μὲν ὡς καθαρώτατα νομίζειν, τὰ δʼ ὡς ἀκαθαρτότερα.
SOCRATES: Let us then first consider in the manual crafts whether one part of them is more closely allied to knowledge and another less, and whether we should regard some as most pure and others as more impure.
ΠΡΩ. οὐκοῦν χρή.
PROTARCHUS: Indeed we must.
ΣΩ. τὰς τοίνυν ἡγεμονικὰς διαληπτέον ἑκάστων αὐτῶν χωρίς;
SOCRATES: Should we, then, separate the ruling crafts of each of them and grasp them apart?
ΠΡΩ. ποίας καὶ πῶς;
PROTARCHUS: Which ones and how?
ΣΩ. οἷον πασῶν που τεχνῶν ἄν τις ἀριθμητικὴν χωρίζῃ καὶ μετρητικὴν καὶ στατικήν, ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν φαῦλον τὸ καταλειπόμενον ἑκάστης ἂν γίγνοιτο.
SOCRATES: For instance, if one were to separate arithmetic, measurement, and weighing from all crafts, what is left of each would become, so to speak, worthless.
ΠΡΩ. φαῦλον μὲν δή.
PROTARCHUS: Worthless indeed.
§56ΣΩ. τὸ γοῦν μετὰ ταῦτʼ εἰκάζειν λείποιτʼ ἂν καὶ τὰς αἰσθήσεις καταμελετᾶν ἐμπειρίᾳ καί τινι τριβῇ, ταῖς τῆς στοχαστικῆς προσχρωμένους δυνάμεσιν ἃς πολλοὶ τέχνας ἐπονομάζουσι, μελέτῃ καὶ πόνῳ τὴν ῥώμην ἀπειργασμένας.
SOCRATES: At any rate, after this, what would be left is conjecturing and training the senses by experience and a certain knack, making use of the powers of guesswork which many people call crafts, which have acquired their strength through practice and labor.
ΠΡΩ. ἀναγκαιότατα λέγεις.
PROTARCHUS: You speak most necessarily.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν μεστὴ μέν που μουσικὴ πρῶτον, τὸ σύμφωνον ἁρμόττουσα οὐ μέτρῳ ἀλλὰ μελέτης στοχασμῷ, καὶ σύμπασα αὐτῆς αὐλητική, τὸ μέτρον ἑκάστης χορδῆς τῷ στοχάζεσθαι φερομένης θηρεύουσα, ὥστε πολὺ μεμειγμένον ἔχειν τὸ μὴ σαφές, σμικρὸν δὲ τὸ βέβαιον.
SOCRATES: Therefore music, first of all, is surely full of this, fitting harmony not by measure but by the guesswork of practice; and all of its pipe-playing, hunting the measure of each vibrating string by guesswork, so that it contains much mixed unclarity and only a small amount of the secure.
ΠΡΩ. ἀληθέστατα.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν ἰατρικήν τε καὶ γεωργίαν καὶ κυβερνητικὴν καὶ στρατηγικὴν ὡσαύτως εὑρήσομεν ἐχούσας.
SOCRATES: And furthermore, we shall find medicine, agriculture, navigation, and military command to be in the same condition.
ΠΡΩ. καὶ πάνυ γε.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so.
ΣΩ. τεκτονικὴν δέ γε οἶμαι πλείστοις μέτροις τε καὶ ὀργάνοις χρωμένην τὰ πολλὴν ἀκρίβειαν αὐτῇ πορίζοντα τεχνικωτέραν τῶν πολλῶν ἐπιστημῶν παρέχεται.
SOCRATES: But carpentry, I think, making use of the greatest number of measures and instruments which provide it with great accuracy, renders itself more scientific than most kinds of knowledge.
ΠΡΩ. πῇ;
PROTARCHUS: In what way?
ΣΩ. κατά τε ναυπηγίαν καὶ κατʼ οἰκοδομίαν καὶ ἐν πολλοῖς ἄλλοις τῆς ξυλουργικῆς.
SOCRATES: In shipbuilding and in house building, and in many other branches of woodworking.
κανόνι γὰρ οἶμαι καὶ τόρνῳ χρῆται καὶ διαβήτῃ καὶ στάθμῃ καί τινι προσαγωγίῳ κεκομψευμένῳ.
For I think it makes use of a rule, a lathe, compasses, a plumb line, and a certain ingenious bevel-gauge.
ΠΡΩ. καὶ πάνυ γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so, Socrates, you speak correctly.
ΣΩ. θῶμεν τοίνυν διχῇ τὰς λεγομένας τέχνας, τὰς μὲν μουσικῇ συνεπομένας ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις ἐλάττονος ἀκριβείας μετισχούσας, τὰς δὲ τεκτονικῇ πλείονος.
SOCRATES: Let us then divide the so-called crafts into two: those which follow music in their works and share in less accuracy, and those which follow carpentry and share in more.
ΠΡΩ. κείσθω.
PROTARCHUS: Let them be so divided.
ΣΩ. τούτων δὲ ταύτας ἀκριβεστάτας εἶναι τέχνας, ἃς νυνδὴ πρώτας εἴπομεν.
SOCRATES: And of these, let us say that those are the most accurate crafts which we mentioned first just now.
ΠΡΩ. ἀριθμητικὴν φαίνῃ μοι λέγειν καὶ ὅσας μετὰ ταύτης τέχνας ἐφθέγξω νυνδή.
PROTARCHUS: You seem to me to mean arithmetic and the other crafts you mentioned along with it just now.
ΣΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
SOCRATES: Entirely so.
ἀλλʼ, ὦ Πρώταρχε, ἆρʼ οὐ διττὰς αὖ καὶ ταύτας λεκτέον;
But, Protarchus, must we not say that these in turn are twofold?
ἢ πῶς;
Or how?
ΠΡΩ. ποίας δὴ λέγεις;
PROTARCHUS: Which ones do you mean?
ΣΩ. ἀριθμητικὴν πρῶτον ἆρʼ οὐκ ἄλλην μέν τινα τὴν τῶν πολλῶν φατέον, ἄλλην δʼ αὖ τὴν τῶν φιλοσοφούντων;
SOCRATES: First, regarding arithmetic, must we not say that one kind is that of the many, and another that of those who do philosophy?
ΠΡΩ. πῇ ποτε διορισάμενος οὖν ἄλλην, τὴν δὲ ἄλλην θείη τις ἂν ἀριθμητικήν;
PROTARCHUS: In what way, then, would one distinguish and set down the one arithmetic and the other?
ΣΩ. οὐ σμικρὸς ὅρος, ὦ Πρώταρχε.
SOCRATES: No small distinction, Protarchus.
οἱ μὲν γάρ που μονάδας ἀνίσους καταριθμοῦνται τῶν περὶ ἀριθμόν, οἷον στρατόπεδα δύο καὶ βοῦς δύο καὶ δύο τὰ σμικρότατα ἢ καὶ τὰ πάντων μέγιστα· οἱ δʼ οὐκ ἄν ποτε αὐτοῖς συνακολουθήσειαν, εἰ μὴ μονάδα μονάδος ἑκάστης τῶν μυρίων μηδεμίαν ἄλλην ἄλλης διαφέρουσάν τις θήσει.
For the one group surely count unequal units in their calculations, such as two armies and two oxen, and two of the smallest things or even the greatest of all; while the others would never follow them unless one posits that no single unit among tens of thousands differs in any way from any other.
ΠΡΩ. καὶ μάλα εὖ λέγεις οὐ σμικρὰν διαφορὰν τῶν περὶ ἀριθμὸν τευταζόντων, ὥστε λόγον ἔχειν δύʼ αὐτὰς εἶναι.
PROTARCHUS: You speak very well indeed; there is no small difference among those who busy themselves with numbers, so that it is reasonable that there are two kinds of arithmetic.