§53ΠΡΩ. τί οὖν προελώμεθα;
PROTARCHUS: What then should we select?
ΣΩ. τὸ λευκὸν ἐν τοῖς πρῶτον, εἰ βούλει, θεασώμεθα γένος.
SOCRATES: Let us first examine the class of white, if you will.
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
ΣΩ. πῶς οὖν ἂν λευκοῦ καὶ τίς καθαρότης ἡμῖν εἴη;
SOCRATES: How and what purity of white would we have?
πότερα τὸ μέγιστόν τε καὶ πλεῖστον ἢ τὸ ἀκρατέστατον, ἐν ᾧ χρώματος μηδεμία μοῖρα ἄλλη μηδενὸς ἐνείη;
Is it the greatest and most abundant, or the most unmixed, in which no other portion of any other color is present?
ΠΡΩ. δῆλον ὅτι τὸ μάλιστʼ εἰλικρινὲς ὄν.
PROTARCHUS: Clearly that which is most unmixed.
ΣΩ. ὀρθῶς.
SOCRATES: Correct.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ τοῦτο ἀληθέστατον, ὦ Πρώταρχε, καὶ ἅμα δὴ κάλλιστον τῶν λευκῶν πάντων θήσομεν, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὸ πλεῖστον οὐδὲ τὸ μέγιστον;
Shall we not then set this, Protarchus, as the truest and at the same time most beautiful of all whites, and not the most abundant or greatest?
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθότατά γε.
PROTARCHUS: Most correctly indeed.
ΣΩ. σμικρὸν ἄρα καθαρὸν λευκὸν μεμειγμένου πολλοῦ λευκοῦ λευκότερον ἅμα καὶ κάλλιον καὶ ἀληθέστερον ἐὰν φῶμεν γίγνεσθαι, παντάπασιν ἐροῦμεν ὀρθῶς.
SOCRATES: Therefore, if we say that a small amount of pure white is whiter, and at the same time more beautiful and truer than a large amount of mixed white, we shall speak entirely correctly.
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθότατα μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Most correctly indeed.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOCRATES: What then?
οὐ δήπου πολλῶν δεησόμεθα παραδειγμάτων τοιούτων ἐπὶ τὸν τῆς ἡδονῆς πέρι λόγον, ἀλλʼ ἀρκεῖ νοεῖν ἡμῖν αὐτόθεν ὡς ἄρα καὶ σύμπασα ἡδονὴ σμικρὰ μεγάλης καὶ ὀλίγη πολλῆς, καθαρὰ λύπης, ἡδίων καὶ ἀληθεστέρα καὶ καλλίων γίγνοιτʼ ἄν.
We surely will not need many such examples for the argument concerning pleasure, but it is enough for us to understand from this very point that even any small pleasure, if pure from pain, would be more pleasant, truer, and more beautiful than a large one, and a little than much.
ΠΡΩ. σφόδρα μὲν οὖν, καὶ τό γε παράδειγμα ἱκανόν.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so indeed, and the example is sufficient.
ΣΩ. τί δὲ τὸ τοιόνδε;
SOCRATES: And what about this sort of thing?
ἆρα περὶ ἡδονῆς οὐκ ἀκηκόαμεν ὡς ἀεὶ γένεσίς ἐστιν, οὐσία δὲ οὐκ ἔστι τὸ παράπαν ἡδονῆς;
Have we not heard concerning pleasure that it is always a becoming, and that there is no being at all of pleasure?
κομψοὶ γὰρ δή τινες αὖ τοῦτον τὸν λόγον ἐπιχειροῦσι μηνύειν ἡμῖν, οἷς δεῖ χάριν ἔχειν.
For indeed some ingenious people in turn attempt to point out this argument to us, to whom we must be grateful.
ΠΡΩ. τί δή;
PROTARCHUS: Why so?
ΣΩ. διαπερανοῦμαί σοι τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ ἐπανερωτῶν, ὦ Πρώταρχε φίλε.
SOCRATES: I will explain this very thing to you by asking in turn, my dear Protarchus.
ΠΡΩ. λέγε καὶ ἐρώτα μόνον.
PROTARCHUS: Speak and just ask.
ΣΩ. ἐστὸν δή τινε δύο, τὸ μὲν αὐτὸ καθʼ αὑτό, τὸ δʼ ἀεὶ ἐφιέμενον ἄλλου.
SOCRATES: There are indeed two things, the one itself by itself, the other always desiring something else.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς τούτω καὶ τίνε λέγεις;
PROTARCHUS: How and what do you mean by these two?
ΣΩ. τὸ μὲν σεμνότατον ἀεὶ πεφυκός, τὸ δʼ ἐλλιπὲς ἐκείνου.
SOCRATES: The one being by nature always most noble, the other deficient of that.
ΠΡΩ. λέγʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.
PROTARCHUS: Speak still more clearly.
ΣΩ. παιδικά που καλὰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ τεθεωρήκαμεν ἅμα καὶ ἐραστὰς ἀνδρείους αὐτῶν.
SOCRATES: We have surely observed beautiful and good beloved youths, and at the same time their courageous lovers.
ΠΡΩ. σφόδρα γε.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so.
ΣΩ. τούτοις τοίνυν ἐοικότα δυοῖν οὖσι δύο ἄλλα ζήτει κατὰ πάνθʼ ὅσα λέγομεν εἶναι.
SOCRATES: Then look for two other things like these two, in everything that we say exists.
ΠΡΩ. τὸ τρίτον ἔτʼ ἐρῶ;
PROTARCHUS: Shall I ask a third time?
λέγε σαφέστερον, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὅτι λέγεις.
Speak more clearly, Socrates, what you mean.
ΣΩ. οὐδέν τι ποικίλον, ὦ Πρώταρχε· ἀλλʼ ὁ λόγος ἐρεσχηλεῖ νῷν, λέγει δʼ ὅτι τὸ μὲν ἕνεκά του τῶν ὄντων ἔστʼ ἀεί, τὸ δʼ οὗ χάριν ἑκάστοτε τὸ τινὸς ἕνεκα γιγνόμενον ἀεὶ γίγνεται.
SOCRATES: Nothing complex, Protarchus; but the argument is teasing us, and says that of existing things, the one is always for the sake of something, while the other is that for the sake of which that which becomes for the sake of something always becomes.
ΠΡΩ. μόγις ἔμαθον διὰ τὸ πολλάκις λεχθῆναι.
PROTARCHUS: I have barely understood because of its being said many times.
§54ΣΩ. τάχα δʼ ἴσως, ὦ παῖ, μᾶλλον μαθησόμεθα προελθόντος τοῦ λόγου.
SOCRATES: Perhaps, my boy, we shall learn it better as the argument proceeds.
ΠΡΩ. τί γὰρ οὔ;
PROTARCHUS: Why not?
ΣΩ. δύο δὴ τάδε ἕτερα λάβωμεν.
SOCRATES: Let us take these other two things.
ΠΡΩ. ποῖα;
PROTARCHUS: What sort of things?
ΣΩ. ἓν μέν τι γένεσιν πάντων, τὴν δὲ οὐσίαν ἕτερον ἕν.
SOCRATES: One is the becoming of all things, the other is being, another one.
ΠΡΩ. δύο ἀποδέχομαί σου ταῦτα, οὐσίαν καὶ γένεσιν.
PROTARCHUS: I accept these two from you, being and becoming.
ΣΩ. ὀρθότατα.
SOCRATES: Most correctly.
πότερον οὖν τούτων ἕνεκα ποτέρου, τὴν γένεσιν οὐσίας ἕνεκα φῶμεν ἢ τὴν οὐσίαν εἶναι γενέσεως ἕνεκα;
Which of these two then is for the sake of which?
ΠΡΩ. τοῦτο ὃ προσαγορεύεται οὐσία εἰ γενέσεως ἕνεκα τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ὅπερ ἐστί, νῦν πυνθάνῃ;
Shall we say that becoming is for the sake of being, or being is for the sake of becoming?
ΣΩ. φαίνομαι.
PROTARCHUS: Are you now asking this: whether that which is called being is what it is for the sake of becoming?
ΠΡΩ. πρὸς θεῶν ἆρʼ ἐπανερωτᾷς με τοιόνδε τι;
SOCRATES: It seems so.
λέγʼ, ὦ Πρώταρχε, μοί, πότερα πλοίων ναυπηγίαν ἕνεκα φῂς γίγνεσθαι μᾶλλον ἢ πλοῖα ἕνεκα ναυπηγίας, καὶ πάνθʼ ὁπόσα τοιαῦτʼ ἐστίν;
PROTARCHUS: By the gods, are you asking me something like this?
ΣΩ. λέγω τοῦτʼ αὐτό, ὦ Πρώταρχε.
"Tell me, Protarchus, whether do you say shipbuilding happens for the sake of ships, or ships for the sake of shipbuilding, and all such things?" SOCRATES: I mean exactly this, Protarchus.
ΠΡΩ. τί οὖν οὐκ αὐτὸς ἀπεκρίνω σαυτῷ, ὦ Σώκρατες;
PROTARCHUS: Why then did you not answer it yourself, Socrates?
ΣΩ. οὐδὲν ὅτι οὔ· σὺ μέντοι τοῦ λόγου συμμέτεχε.
SOCRATES: No reason why not; but you, however, take part in the argument.
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly.
ΣΩ. φημὶ δὴ γενέσεως μὲν ἕνεκα φάρμακά τε καὶ πάντα ὄργανα καὶ πᾶσαν ὕλην παρατίθεσθαι πᾶσιν, ἑκάστην δὲ γένεσιν ἄλλην ἄλλης οὐσίας τινὸς ἑκάστης ἕνεκα γίγνεσθαι, σύμπασαν δὲ γένεσιν οὐσίας ἕνεκα γίγνεσθαι συμπάσης.
SOCRATES: I say indeed that for the sake of becoming, drugs and all tools and all materials are provided to all, and that each particular becoming happens for the sake of each particular being, and that all becoming in general happens for the sake of all being in general.
ΠΡΩ. σαφέστατα μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Most clearly indeed.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἡδονή γε, εἴπερ γένεσίς ἐστιν, ἕνεκά τινος οὐσίας ἐξ ἀνάγκης γίγνοιτʼ ἄν.
SOCRATES: Therefore pleasure, if indeed it is becoming, would of necessity happen for the sake of some being.
ΠΡΩ. τί μήν;
PROTARCHUS: How could it be otherwise?
ΣΩ. τό γε μὴν οὗ ἕνεκα τὸ ἕνεκά του γιγνόμενον ἀεὶ γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, ἐν τῇ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ μοίρᾳ ἐκεῖνό ἐστι· τὸ δὲ τινὸς ἕνεκα γιγνόμενον εἰς ἄλλην, ὦ ἄριστε, μοῖραν θετέον.
SOCRATES: Now, that for the sake of which that which becomes for the sake of something would always become, that is in the portion of the good; but that which becomes for the sake of something must be placed in another portion, my excellent friend.
ΠΡΩ. ἀναγκαιότατον.
PROTARCHUS: Most necessary.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἡδονή γε εἴπερ γένεσίς ἐστιν, εἰς ἄλλην ἢ τὴν τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ μοῖραν αὐτὴν τιθέντες ὀρθῶς θήσομεν;
SOCRATES: If pleasure indeed is becoming, shall we place it correctly by placing it in another portion than that of the good?
ΠΡΩ. ὀρθότατα μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Most correctly indeed.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὅπερ ἀρχόμενος εἶπον τούτου τοῦ λόγου, τῷ μηνύσαντι τῆς ἡδονῆς πέρι τὸ γένεσιν μέν, οὐσίαν δὲ μηδʼ ἡντινοῦν αὐτῆς εἶναι, χάριν ἔχειν δεῖ· δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι οὗτος τῶν φασκόντων ἡδονὴν ἀγαθὸν εἶναι καταγελᾷ.
SOCRATES: Therefore, as I said at the beginning of this argument, we must be grateful to the one who pointed out concerning pleasure that it is a becoming, and that there is no being of it at all; for it is clear that this person laughs at those who claim that pleasure is the good.
ΠΡΩ. σφόδρα γε.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so.
ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν αὑτὸς οὗτος ἑκάστοτε καὶ τῶν ἐν ταῖς γενέσεσιν ἀποτελουμένων καταγελάσεται.
SOCRATES: And indeed, this same person on each occasion will also laugh at those who find fulfillment in becomings.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς δὴ καὶ ποίων λέγεις;
PROTARCHUS: How indeed and of what sort of people do you speak?
ΣΩ. τῶν ὅσοι ἐξιώμενοι ἢ πείνην ἢ δίψαν ἤ τι τῶν τοιούτων, ὅσα γένεσις ἐξιᾶται, χαίρουσι διὰ τὴν γένεσιν ἅτε ἡδονῆς οὔσης αὐτῆς, καί φασι ζῆν οὐκ ἂν δέξασθαι μὴ διψῶντές τε καὶ πεινῶντες καὶ τἆλλα ἅ τις ἂν εἴποι πάντα τὰ ἑπόμενα τοῖς τοιούτοις παθήμασι μὴ πάσχοντες.
SOCRATES: Those who, curing either hunger or thirst or any of such things, as many as becoming cures, rejoice on account of the becoming as it is pleasure itself, and say they would not accept living if they did not thirst and hunger and suffer all the other things which one might mention that follow such affections.