§45ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἰ καὶ τὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς γένος ἰδεῖν ἥντινά ποτʼ ἔχει φύσιν βουληθεῖμεν, οὐκ εἰς τὰς πολλοστὰς ἡδονὰς ἀποβλεπτέον, ἀλλʼ εἰς τὰς ἀκροτάτας καὶ σφοδροτάτας λεγομένας.
SOCRATES: Therefore, if we should also wish to see what kind of nature the class of pleasure has, we must not look at the least pleasures, but at those that are said to be the most extreme and intense.
ΠΡΩ. πᾶς ἄν σοι ταύτῃ συγχωροίη τὰ νῦν.
PROTARCHUS: Everyone would agree with you on this point now.
ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, αἱ πρόχειροί γε αἵπερ καὶ μέγισται τῶν ἡδονῶν, ὃ λέγομεν πολλάκις, αἱ περὶ τὸ σῶμά εἰσιν αὗται;
SOCRATES: Are then the most readily available and indeed the greatest of pleasures, as we often say, those regarding the body?
ΠΡΩ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
PROTARCHUS: For how could they not be?
ΣΩ. πότερον οὖν καὶ μείζους εἰσὶ καὶ γίγνονται περὶ τοὺς κάμνοντας ἐν ταῖς νόσοις ἢ περὶ ὑγιαίνοντας;
SOCRATES: Do they then both become and exist as greater in the case of those who are suffering from sickness, or in the case of those who are healthy?
εὐλαβηθῶμεν δὲ μὴ προπετῶς ἀποκρινόμενοι πταίσωμέν πῃ. τάχα γὰρ ἴσως φαῖμεν ἂν περὶ ὑγιαίνοντας.
But let us be careful lest we stumble somewhere by answering rashly; for perhaps we might say they are in the case of those who are healthy.
ΠΡΩ. εἰκός γε.
PROTARCHUS: It is likely.
ΣΩ. τί δʼ;
SOCRATES: What then?
οὐχ αὗται τῶν ἡδονῶν ὑπερβάλλουσιν, ὧν ἂν καὶ ἐπιθυμίαι μέγισται προγίγνωνται;
Do not those pleasures surpass all others, which are preceded by the greatest desires?
ΠΡΩ. τοῦτο μὲν ἀληθές.
PROTARCHUS: This indeed is true.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὐχ οἱ πυρέττοντες καὶ ἐν τοιούτοις νοσήμασιν ἐχόμενοι μᾶλλον διψῶσι καὶ ῥιγοῦσι καὶ πάντα ὁπόσα διὰ τοῦ σώματος εἰώθασι πάσχειν, μᾶλλόν τʼ ἐνδείᾳ συγγίγνονται καὶ ἀποπληρουμένων μείζους ἡδονὰς ἴσχουσιν;
SOCRATES: But do not those who have a fever and are held by such sicknesses suffer more intensely from thirst, shivering, and all such things as they are accustomed to experience through the body, and being in greater want, do they not experience greater pleasures when they are filled?
ἢ τοῦτο οὐ φήσομεν ἀληθὲς εἶναι;
Or shall we say this is not true?
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν νῦν ῥηθὲν φαίνεται.
PROTARCHUS: Indeed, what has just been said certainly seems to be the case.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOCRATES: What then?
ὀρθῶς ἂν φαινοίμεθα λέγοντες ὡς εἴ τις τὰς μεγίστας ἡδονὰς ἰδεῖν βούλοιτο, οὐκ εἰς ὑγίειαν ἀλλʼ εἰς νόσον ἰόντας δεῖ σκοπεῖν;
Would we seem to speak correctly if we said that if one wished to see the greatest pleasures, one must look not at health, but at those who are entering into sickness?
ὅρα δὲ μή με ἡγῇ διανοούμενον ἐρωτᾶν σε εἰ πλείω χαίρουσιν οἱ σφόδρα νοσοῦντες τῶν ὑγιαινόντων, ἀλλʼ οἴου μέγεθός με ζητεῖν ἡδονῆς, καὶ τὸ σφόδρα περὶ τοῦ τοιούτου ποῦ ποτε γίγνεται ἑκάστοτε.
But take care not to think that I am asking you with the intention of finding out whether those who are extremely sick enjoy themselves more than those who are healthy; rather, think that I am seeking the magnitude of pleasure, and where the "extreme" in such cases ever occurs.
νοῆσαι γὰρ δεῖ φαμεν ἥντινα φύσιν ἔχει καὶ τίνα λέγουσιν οἱ φάσκοντες μηδʼ εἶναι τὸ παράπαν αὐτήν.
For we say we must understand what kind of nature it has, and what those mean who claim that it does not exist at all.
ΠΡΩ. ἀλλὰ σχεδὸν ἕπομαι τῷ λόγῳ σου.
PROTARCHUS: Well, I am following your argument pretty closely.
ΣΩ. τάχα, ὦ Πρώταρχε, οὐχ ἧττον δείξεις.
SOCRATES: Perhaps, Protarchus, you will show it no less.
ἀπόκριναι γάρ· ἐν ὕβρει μείζους ἡδονάς—οὐ πλείους λέγω, τῷ σφόδρα δὲ καὶ τῷ μᾶλλον ὑπερεχούσας—ὁρᾷς ἢ ἐν τῷ σώφρονι βίῳ;
For answer me: do you see greater pleasures—I do not say more in number, but surpassing in intensity and degree—in wantonness, or in the temperate life?
λέγε δὲ προσέχων τὸν νοῦν.
Speak, paying close attention.
ΠΡΩ. ἀλλʼ ἔμαθον ὃ λέγεις, καὶ πολὺ τὸ διαφέρον ὁρῶ.
PROTARCHUS: Well, I understand what you say, and I see a great difference.
τοὺς μὲν γὰρ σώφρονάς που καὶ ὁ παροιμιαζόμενος ἐπίσχει λόγος ἑκάστοτε, ὁ τὸ
μηδὲν ἄγαν
παρακελευόμενος, ᾧ πείθονται· τὸ δὲ τῶν ἀφρόνων τε καὶ ὑβριστῶν μέχρι μανίας ἡ σφοδρὰ ἡδονὴ κατέχουσα περιβοήτους ἀπεργάζεται.
For temperate men, indeed, are held back on each occasion by the proverbial saying that counsels "nothing too much," which they obey; but as for the foolish and wanton, the intense pleasure possessing them even unto madness makes them notorious.
ΣΩ. καλῶς· καὶ εἴ γε τοῦθʼ οὕτως ἔχει, δῆλον ὡς ἔν τινι πονηρίᾳ ψυχῆς καὶ τοῦ σώματος, ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐν ἀρετῇ μέγισται μὲν ἡδοναί, μέγισται δὲ καὶ λῦπαι γίγνονται.
SOCRATES: Beautifully said; and if indeed this is so, it is clear that the greatest pleasures, and also the greatest pains, occur in some wickedness of the soul and the body, but not in virtue.
ΠΡΩ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Very much so.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τούτων τινὰς προελόμενον δεῖ σκοπεῖσθαι τίνα ποτὲ τρόπον ἐχούσας ἐλέγομεν αὐτὰς εἶναι μεγίστας.
SOCRATES: Therefore, we must select some of these and examine what sort of state they possess, because of which we said they are the greatest.