Humanitext Reader

Plato · Philebus §17

Intermediates between One and Unlimited and Examples of Sound

Passage 5 of 34 · Greek

Summary

Socrates explains the importance of grasping the intermediate numbers between the "one" and the "unlimited" by using the examples of letters (vocal sounds) and music (intervals and harmonies), showing that this is what distinguishes dialectic from eristic.

§17ΣΩ. οἱ μὲν οὖν θεοί, ὅπερ εἶπον, οὕτως ἡμῖν παρέδοσαν σκοπεῖν καὶ μανθάνειν καὶ διδάσκειν ἀλλήλους·
SOCRATES: The gods, then, as I said, handed down to us this way to investigate, learn, and teach one another.
οἱ δὲ νῦν τῶν ἀνθρώπων σοφοὶ ἓν μέν, ὅπως ἂν τύχωσι, καὶ πολλὰ θᾶττον καὶ βραδύτερον ποιοῦσι τοῦ δέοντος, μετὰ δὲ τὸ ἓν ἄπειρα εὐθύς, τὰ δὲ μέσα αὐτοὺς ἐκφεύγει—οἷς διακεχώρισται τό τε διαλεκτικῶς πάλιν καὶ τὸ ἐριστικῶς ἡμᾶς ποιεῖσθαι πρὸς ἀλλήλους τοὺς λόγους.
But the wise men of today make "one," as chance has it, and "many" more quickly or more slowly than they ought, and immediately after the "one" they put the "infinite," while the intermediates escape them—by which the distinction is made between our discussing with one another dialectically and doing so eristically.
ΠΡΩ. τὰ μέν πως, ὦ Σώκρατες, δοκῶ σου μανθάνειν, τὰ δὲ ἔτι σαφέστερον δέομαι ἃ λέγεις ἀκοῦσαι.
PROTARCHUS: In a way, Socrates, I think I understand you, but in another way, I still need to hear what you are saying more clearly.
ΣΩ. σαφὲς μήν, ὦ Πρώταρχε, ἐστὶν ἐν τοῖς γράμμασιν ὃ λέγω, καὶ λάμβανʼ αὐτὸ ἐν τούτοις οἷσπερ καὶ πεπαίδευσαι.
SOCRATES: Indeed, Protarchus, what I am saying is clear in the case of letters, and take it in those very things in which you were educated.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς;
PROTARCHUS: How?
ΣΩ. φωνὴ μὲν ἡμῖν ἐστί που μία διὰ τοῦ στόματος ἰοῦσα, καὶ ἄπειρος αὖ πλήθει, πάντων τε καὶ ἑκάστου.
SOCRATES: Sound, surely, is one thing that goes out through our mouth, and yet again it is infinite in number, both for all people and for each.
ΠΡΩ. τί μήν;
PROTARCHUS: To be sure.
ΣΩ. καὶ οὐδὲν ἑτέρῳ γε τούτων ἐσμέν πω σοφοί, οὔτε ὅτι τὸ ἄπειρον αὐτῆς ἴσμεν οὔθʼ ὅτι τὸ ἕν· ἀλλʼ ὅτι πόσα τʼ ἐστὶ καὶ ὁποῖα, τοῦτό ἐστι τὸ γραμματικὸν ἕκαστον ποιοῦν ἡμῶν.
SOCRATES: And we are not yet wise in either of these two, neither because we know its infinity nor because we know its "one"; but how many they are and of what kind, this is what makes each of us literate.
ΠΡΩ. ἀληθέστατα.
PROTARCHUS: Most true.
ΣΩ. καὶ μὴν καὶ τὸ μουσικὸν ὃ τυγχάνει ποιοῦν, τοῦτʼ ἔστι ταὐτόν.
SOCRATES: And indeed, what makes a person musical is also this very same thing.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς;
PROTARCHUS: How?
ΣΩ. φωνὴ μέν που καὶ τὸ κατʼ ἐκείνην τὴν τέχνην ἐστὶ μία ἐν αὐτῇ.
SOCRATES: Sound, surely, in that art as well, is one within itself.
ΠΡΩ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
PROTARCHUS: How could it not be?
ΣΩ. δύο δὲ θῶμεν βαρὺ καὶ ὀξύ, καὶ τρίτον ὁμότονον.
SOCRATES: And let us posit two sounds, low and high, and a third, of even pitch.
ἢ πῶς;
Is that not so?
ΠΡΩ. οὕτως.
PROTARCHUS: Yes, so it is.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὔπω σοφὸς ἂν εἴης τὴν μουσικὴν εἰδὼς ταῦτα μόνα, μὴ δὲ εἰδὼς ὥς γʼ ἔπος εἰπεῖν εἰς ταῦτα οὐδενὸς ἄξιος ἔσῃ.
SOCRATES: But you would not yet be wise in music by knowing only these things; indeed, you will be, so to speak, of no account in these matters.
ΠΡΩ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
PROTARCHUS: Certainly not.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ φίλε, ἐπειδὰν λάβῃς τὰ διαστήματα ὁπόσα ἐστὶ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τῆς φωνῆς ὀξύτητός τε πέρι καὶ βαρύτητος, καὶ ὁποῖα, καὶ τοὺς ὅρους τῶν διαστημάτων, καὶ τὰ ἐκ τούτων ὅσα συστήματα γέγονεν—ἃ κατιδόντες οἱ πρόσθεν παρέδοσαν ἡμῖν τοῖς ἑπομένοις ἐκείνοις καλεῖν αὐτὰ ἁρμονίας, ἔν τε ταῖς κινήσεσιν αὖ τοῦ σώματος ἕτερα τοιαῦτα ἐνόντα πάθη γιγνόμενα, ἃ δὴ διʼ ἀριθμῶν μετρηθέντα δεῖν αὖ φασι ῥυθμοὺς καὶ μέτρα ἐπονομάζειν, καὶ ἅμα ἐννοεῖν ὡς οὕτω δεῖ περὶ παντὸς ἑνὸς καὶ πολλῶν σκοπεῖν—ὅταν γὰρ αὐτά τε λάβῃς οὕτω, τότε ἐγένου σοφός, ὅταν τε ἄλλο τῶν ἓν ὁτιοῦν ταύτῃ σκοπούμενος ἕλῃς, οὕτως ἔμφρων περὶ τοῦτο γέγονας·
SOCRATES: But, my friend, when you grasp the intervals, how many they are in number concerning the high and low of the voice, and of what kind, and the limits of the intervals, and how many systems have come from these—which the ancients, having discerned them, handed down to us who follow them to call them "harmonies," and in the movements of the body again, they say there are other such affections present, which, having been measured by numbers, must in turn be called "rhythms" and "meters," and at the same time you realize that one must investigate every "one and many" in this way—for when you grasp these things in this way, then you have become wise, and when you grasp any other "one" by investigating it in this manner, you have become intelligent concerning that.
τὸ δʼ ἄπειρόν σε ἑκάστων καὶ ἐν ἑκάστοις πλῆθος ἄπειρον ἑκάστοτε ποιεῖ τοῦ φρονεῖν καὶ οὐκ ἐλλόγιμον οὐδʼ ἐνάριθμον, ἅτʼ οὐκ εἰς ἀριθμὸν οὐδένα ἐν οὐδενὶ πώποτε ἀπιδόντα.
But the unlimited plurality of each and in each makes you on each occasion unlimited in your thinking, of no account and not to be numbered, inasmuch as you have never looked to any number in anything.
ΠΡΩ. κάλλιστα, ὦ Φίληβε, ἔμοιγε τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα εἰρηκέναι φαίνεται Σωκράτης.
PROTARCHUS: Philebus, Socrates seems to me to have spoken most beautifully just now.

Notes

  1. 17aοἷς διακεχώρισται — The relative pronoun οἷς is a dative of means or cause, whose antecedent is the "intermediates (τὰ μέσα)" or the situation of missing them in the preceding clause.
  2. 17bοὐδὲν ἑτέρῳ γε τούτων ἐσμέν πω σοφοί — οὐδὲν is an adverbial accusative ("not at all"), and ἑτέρῳ is a dative of cause or respect governed by the genitive τούτων, meaning "by either one of these."
  3. 17dἀλλʼ, ὦ φίλε... ὅταν γὰρ αὐτά τε λάβῃς... — Analysis of the extremely long sentence stretching from 17d to 17e. The long temporal-conditional clause starting with ἐπειδὰν λάβῃς ... is interrupted by relative clauses and parallel elements, and is finally restated by ὅταν in 17e (ὅταν γὰρ αὐτά τε λάβῃς οὕτω, τότε ἐγένου σοφός) where it resolves into the main clause.
  4. 17eτὸ δʼ ἄπειρόν σε ἑκάστων καὶ ἐν ἑκάστοις πλῆθος... ποιεῖ τοῦ φρονεῖν — The verb ποιεῖ here takes a double accusative construction modified by a genitive of restriction/respect: "the unlimited plurality (tò ápeiron plêthos) makes you (se) unlimited (ápeiron) with respect to thinking (toû phroneîn)."

Cite this passage

Plato, Philebus §17. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg010.humanitext-grc2:17

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